506 Abt. Tiger II #313 November 17,1944

Discussions on the vehicles used by the Axis forces. Hosted by Christian Ankerstjerne
Miles Krogfus
Member
Posts: 471
Joined: 08 May 2015 19:54
Location: San Diego, CA

506 Abt. Tiger II #313 November 17,1944

Post by Miles Krogfus » 12 Feb 2016 02:33

Using American unit after action reports, 2nd Arm.Div. vets comments, German reports and Tiger unit and 9. Pz.Div. vets data, here is what happened during November 17,1944 on the tank fighting territory over the Roer Plains from 8 AM on: 7. Komp.(Panther)/Pz.Rgt. 33 east of Geilenkirchen 4 Panthers Totalausfälle and 6 crew killed, 8. Komp. near Immendorf 1 Panther KO'd 2 crew killed. These 9. Pz.Division Panthers Ko'd circa 34 2. Pz.Div. medium and light tanks. From east of Gereonsweiler and Puffendorf, 2nd and 3rd Komp./schwere Panzerabteilung 506 King Tigers Ko'd circa 24, with 4 Totalausfälle: 1 shot by a 67th Arm.Rgt. Sherman and abandoned, 3 Ko'd and totally lost when struck by 105 mm howitzer fire. One of these three was Tiger #313 of Stabsfeldwebel Kurt Kannenberg who was killed after shooting 14 tanks from his spot near Ederen, firing at up to 4500 meters (awarded the RK December 17,1944). "Der mit seinem Tiger 14 Sherman erledigte, bis er durch einen Artillerievolltreffer bei Ederen sein vorbildlich tapferes Leben beschloss." Total loss figures for the 58 Ko'd Americans: 18 Shermans and 7 light tanks destroyed, 16 Shermans and 12 light tanks damaged, 1 M36 Tank destroyer lost. Plus 4 Combat Command A Shermans lost (its destroyed/damaged breakdown not listed). 56 killed, 26 missing, 281 wounded.
Here are comments from 2nd Armored Division crewmen: Major Paul Bane ExO 3rd Batt. 67 Arm.Rgt.: 10 plus Sherman 75/76 hits on a Panther with no results, it then Ko'd 4 Shermans within 5 minutes. Sgt. John Rowse: on his company's left flank, hit by Panther's 75 from circa 1000 yards, APCBC went right through the Sherman's other side. T/Sgt. Richard Heyd (Maintenance Sgt. of Company E, 67 Arm.Rgt.): of a total of 19 tanks hit, 17 penetrated, only 2 withstood the high velocity shells. 2nd Lt. Clarence Sward: observed a tank company in front of mine, in 20 minutes 9 medium, 1 light tank Ko'd. "I don't believe any Jerry tanks were knocked out."

Jan-Hendrik
Member
Posts: 8451
Joined: 11 Nov 2004 12:53
Location: Hohnhorst / Deutschland

Re: 506 Abt. Tiger II #313 November 17,1944

Post by Jan-Hendrik » 12 Feb 2016 09:51

Thank your for this input!

Jan-Hendrik

Michael Kenny
Member
Posts: 7062
Joined: 07 May 2002 19:40
Location: Teesside

Re: 506 Abt. Tiger II #313 November 17,1944

Post by Michael Kenny » 12 Feb 2016 12:56

Total loss figures for the 58 Ko'd Americans: 18 Shermans and 7 light tanks destroyed, 16 Shermans and 12 light tanks damaged

Total losses for 67 Armored Regiment 2nd AD for the period Nov 16 to Nov 24
2nd Wedn0112016.jpg
31 Medium & 12 Light tanks shown as casualties (43) and 12 medium & 6 light (18) shown as total losses.
It is not clear if that is 43 medium and 18 light casualties of which 12 medium & 6 light were struck off or a total of 61 casualties.
Note that the 43/61 tank casualties are spread over over 8 days and not all on Nov 17th.

An earlier entry gived 21 medium and 11 light tank casualties for Task Force 1 for either (again not clear) 17 Nov or for Nov 17-18.
2nd Wedn0132016.jpg


Here are comments from 2nd Armored Division crewmen: Major Paul Bane ExO 3rd Batt. 67 Arm.Rgt.: 10 plus Sherman 75/76 hits on a Panther with no results, it then Ko'd 4 Shermans within 5 minutes. Sgt. John Rowse: on his company's left flank, hit by Panther's 75 from circa 1000 yards, APCBC went right through the Sherman's other side. T/Sgt. Richard Heyd (Maintenance Sgt. of Company E, 67 Arm.Rgt.): of a total of 19 tanks hit, 17 penetrated, only 2 withstood the high velocity shells. 2nd Lt. Clarence Sward: observed a tank company in front of mine, in 20 minutes 9 medium, 1 light tank Ko'd. "I don't believe any Jerry tanks were knocked out."

These are unsourced & unreferenced comments from an unofficial 'booklet from 2nd AD. They are not from an AAR or any official document. Several of the conclusions drawn by the contributors can be shown to be factually incorrect.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Miles Krogfus
Member
Posts: 471
Joined: 08 May 2015 19:54
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: 506 Abt. Tiger II #313 November 17,1944

Post by Miles Krogfus » 13 Feb 2016 03:09

Wounded by the 67th Arm.Rgt. Sherman, Tiger #211 was restored to running order by Company B 129th Ordnance Battalion in December. Besides Task Force #1, there were a number of other "Task Forces" involved on the 17th and with a TD unit. My original post does not discuss other combat days. Comments of crewmen that I give relate to that day; see the official report "Headquarters 2D Armored Division, Office of the Division Commander" 20 March 1945, "Exhibit NO.3." American crewmen stated the following as regards various 1944-1945 combats, as tank commander Cpl. Francis Vierling: "To see 25 or even more of our rounds fired and ricochet off the enemy attackers, to be finally hit ONCE, and we climb from leave a burning, blackened and now a useless pile of scrap iron." Capt. Henry Johnson, CO F Comp. 66th Amrd.Rgt.: "85 % of the tanks we have lost have been due to enemy SP guns, tanks and AT guns . . . The German use of smokeless powder makes it very difficult for us to pick them up . . . the flash of our own guns is easily discernible . . . from a great distance." Quite a number of Sherman crewmen comment about the Panzers smokeless, flashless powder. Lt.Col. Wilson Hawkins, CO 3rd Batt. 67th Arm.Rgt. said that HVAP ammo for 76 mm Shermans gave crews confidence, but "we have never been able to supply a tank with more than 2 or 3 rounds " and his unit didn't obtain more than 7 out of 17 Shermans with 76 mm guns. Lt.Col. John Beal CO 702d Tank Destroyer Batt. says during 24/25 November Panzers got hits on US tanks and TD's at 3200 yards in the mist and fog, we only could see them with great difficulty. Fellow AHF members await Michael's data giving breakdowns of the complete totals of Panther/Tiger killed claims from all 2nd Division armor, including the 2 TD battalions, then I will give them the German Totalausfalle figures for November 17-24.
Last edited by Miles Krogfus on 13 Feb 2016 07:53, edited 1 time in total.

Michael Kenny
Member
Posts: 7062
Joined: 07 May 2002 19:40
Location: Teesside

Re: 506 Abt. Tiger II #313 November 17,1944

Post by Michael Kenny » 13 Feb 2016 07:52

Miles Krogfus wrote:Besides Task Force #1, there were a number of other "Task Forces" involved on the 17th and with a TD unit. .
Are you saying other US tank units were involved? Can you name them and what Armored Division were they from?

You gave 1 loss from a TD unit. Are you saying you missed some TD losses out?
Comments of crewmen that I give relate to that day; see the official report "Headquarters 2D Armored Division, Office of the Division Commander" 20 March 1945, "Exhibit NO.3.
The 'Official Report' is anything but official. Eisenhower wrote to White on 18 March 1945 stating:

'Please do not take the time to make a general staff study out of this. If you could include a few quotes from experienced non-commisioned officers it might be helpful to my purpose as I want to tell the truth about these matters to the war department rather than allow any misconceptions to prevail.'

White replied on the 20th March 1945 (2 days later)with the full text of what is commonly known today as 'United States Vs German Equipment. You have incorrectly applied the term 'official report' to a document which was specifically created so as not to be an official report,

Miles Krogfus wrote:Comments of crewmen that I give relate to that day; see the official report "Headquarters 2D Armored Division, Office of the Division Commander" 20 March 1945, "Exhibit NO.3." ..............................
Here are comments from 2nd Armored Division crewmen:...................
I will compare using my copy of 'United States vs German Equipment' as it is the same document. I take 'relate to that day' to mean Nov 17 1944.
Miles Krogfus wrote: Major Paul Bane ExO 3rd Batt. 67 Arm.Rgt.: 10 plus Sherman 75/76 hits on a Panther with no results, it then Ko'd 4 Shermans within 5 minutes.
Bane says this happened 'during the November offensive along the Roer River' and makes no mention of it being specific to November 17th.

Miles Krogfus wrote: Sgt. John Rowse: on his company's left flank, hit by Panther's 75 from circa 1000 yards, APCBC went right through the Sherman's other side.
Rowse does indeed say Nov 17th for this incident. However the version I have makes no mention of either 'Panther' or 'APCBC' and simply says he was hit by a 75mm shell.
Miles Krogfus wrote: T/Sgt. Richard Heyd (Maintenance Sgt. of Company E, 67 Arm.Rgt.): of a total of 19 tanks hit, 17 penetrated, only 2 withstood the high velocity shells.
Heyd does not link these numbers to Nov 17th and it appears to be the sum total of all knocked out tanks he dealt with 1944-45.
Miles Krogfus wrote: 2nd Lt. Clarence Sward: observed a tank company in front of mine, in 20 minutes 9 medium, 1 light tank Ko'd. "I don't believe any Jerry tanks were knocked out."
Sward does say Nov 17th for this incident.

Miles Krogfus wrote: Cpl. Francis Vierling: "To see 25 or even more of our rounds fired and ricochet off the enemy attackers, to be finally hit ONCE, and we climb from and leave a burning, blackened and now a useless pile of scrap iron."
This quote makes no claim that this happened on Nov 17th or any other specific day.

Miles Krogfus wrote: Capt. Henry Johnson, CO F Comp. 66th Amrd.Rgt.: "85 % of the tanks we have lost have been due to enemy SP guns, tanks and AT guns . . .
This comment is not linked to Nov 17th in any way. Given that he also says the 'vast majority' of Tiger tanks he encountered were destroyed by air attack you have to question his data.


6 quotes of which only 2 apply to Nov 17 1944.
Last edited by Michael Kenny on 13 Feb 2016 08:18, edited 2 times in total.

Michael Kenny
Member
Posts: 7062
Joined: 07 May 2002 19:40
Location: Teesside

Re: 506 Abt. Tiger II #313 November 17,1944

Post by Michael Kenny » 13 Feb 2016 08:14

Miles Krogfus wrote:. Fellow AHF members await Michael's data giving breakdowns of the complete totals of Panther/Tiger killed claims from all 2nd Division armor, including the 2 TD battalions, then I will give them the German Totalausfalle figures for November 17-24.
' Fellow AHF members' will have a long wait. I know all side claimed kills far in excess of reality. I know US claims were inflated. I know UK claims were inflated. I know Russian claims were inflated. I know German claims were inflated. I was not surprised German kill claims for Nov 17 1944 were greater than 2 AD losses. All kill claims are greater than reality.

Miles Krogfus
Member
Posts: 471
Joined: 08 May 2015 19:54
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: 506 Abt. Tiger II #313 November 17,1944

Post by Miles Krogfus » 13 Feb 2016 10:47

I state in my above reply to Michael that its 2 following comments from vets are from "various 1944-1945 combats" so not from November 17th. Here are claims of the 702nd Tank Destroyer Battalion: November 16 B Company destroyed 1 Panther. November 17 A Company dest. 1 Panther, B Company dest. 2 Panthers. November 18 A Comp. dest. 2 Panthers. Nov. 19 A Comp. dest. 3 Panthers, B Comp. 2 Panthers. November 20 A Comp. dest. 1 Panther, 2 Tigers. November 21 B Comp. destr. 1 Panther, C Comp. 2 Panthers. Total of 15 Panthers 2 Tiger II.
771st Tank Destroyer Battalion: November 19 destroyed 8 Panthers lost 1 M10 TD. November 20 at 1200 3 Tiger II's fired at from circa 3000 yards, no Ko's. with 2 M10 TD lost. At 1600 2 Tigers destroyed, 2 M 10 TD lost. November 21 2 TD hit by 88 mm fire killing 3, including platoon leader Lt. John Horton. To Nov.23 in static positions, no combats. Total of 8 Panthers, 2 Tiger II destroyed.
The two TD Batt. of the 2nd Armored Division claimed 23 Panthers 4 Tigers.
Since Michael quoted fragments from one Sherman Task Force, he now can give AHF members its daily kill claim totals, then . . .

Michael Kenny
Member
Posts: 7062
Joined: 07 May 2002 19:40
Location: Teesside

Re: 506 Abt. Tiger II #313 November 17,1944

Post by Michael Kenny » 13 Feb 2016 13:30

Miles Krogfus wrote:I state in my above reply to Michael that its 2 following comments from vets are from "various 1944-1945 combats" so not from November 17th...........Cpl. Francis Vierling.........
true for this post Feb 13, 2016 9:47 am
Miles Krogfus wrote: American crewmen stated the following as regards various 1944-1945 combats, as tank commander Cpl. Francis Vierling: ................... Lt.Col. Wilson Hawkins...................Lt.Col. John Beal..........Capt. Henry Johnson...........
But not for the previous post Feb 13, 2016 2:09 am
Miles Krogfus wrote: Besides Task Force #1, there were a number of other "Task Forces" involved on the 17th and with a TD unit. My original post does not discuss other combat days. Comments of crewmen that I give relate to that day
So still 2 of the 4 examples you gave have nothing to do with the specific day you chose, Nov 17 1944.

Miles Krogfus wrote: Since Michael quoted fragments from one Sherman Task Force, he now can give AHF members its daily kill claim totals, then . . .
Why would I do that? The obsession with kill claims is entirely one sided here and I have explained the fact that all kill claims are inflated. I have no hesitation is saying Allied kill claims were inflated.
However here is the original 67 Armored Regiment 2nd AD claimed tally for November 1944. The original is badly faded but it can be seen that the 67th did not have huge kill claims. 6(?) Pz VI, 5 Panthers and 2 Tigers in all. So sorry to disappoint.
2nd Wedn0212016.jpg
I note also that you have not given the individual German kill claims for Nov 17th.
Miles Krogfus wrote: 9. Pz.Division Panthers Ko'd circa 34 2. Pz.Div. medium and light tanks. From east of Gereonsweiler and Puffendorf, 2nd and 3rd Komp./schwere Panzerabteilung 506 King Tigers Ko'd circa 24
It appears to me that you arrived at the above kill claims (circa 34 & circa 24) working backwards from a US source that gave you:
Miles Krogfus wrote: Total loss figures for the 58 Ko'd Americans: 18 Shermans and 7 light tanks destroyed, 16 Shermans and 12 light tanks damaged 1 M36 Tank destroyer lost. Plus 4 Combat Command A Shermans lost
and then assumed all losses were due to tank action and no US tanks were lost for any other reason except penetration and that is why you used this which has nothing to do with Nov 17 at all. :
Miles Krogfus wrote: Capt. Henry Johnson, CO F Comp. 66th Amrd.Rgt.: "85 % of the tanks we have lost have been due to enemy SP guns, tanks and AT guns
Good job I spotted that.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Michael Kenny
Member
Posts: 7062
Joined: 07 May 2002 19:40
Location: Teesside

Re: 506 Abt. Tiger II #313 November 17,1944

Post by Michael Kenny » 13 Feb 2016 14:08

Miles Krogfus wrote:Using American unit after action reports, 2nd Arm.Div. vets comments,
Could you link these 'US Reports'?
Also can you identify the other US Tank Units you say were in action here?
Are they not listed in your 'American unit after action reports'?

The 67 A. Rgt AAR seems not to have been one of the documents you consulted.
I suspect you have the TD Unit AARs and the over-the-top claims they contains led you to believe 67 A. Rgt would be just as exaggerated. Not so.

Miles Krogfus
Member
Posts: 471
Joined: 08 May 2015 19:54
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: 506 Abt. Tiger II #313 November 17,1944

Post by Miles Krogfus » 13 Feb 2016 20:32

Thanks Michael for the November data up to the 24th, but you do not give specific 67th claims for the 17th. The 66th was also engaged versus Panthers/Tigers then and the other days you inject into my original post. What did the 66th claim as kills for that day and others? With the dates and locations of 9th Pz.Div.Panther actions, I put 2 items together, one German one American, and then stated that the undated Sherman vets material I quoted was on the 17th: a standard research method. I do not say that any other American tank division was involved, but various 2nd Div. task forces were then and on the other days you bring in. All kill claims need to be investigated, but some are not inflated. How many Tigers did the 66th claim to the 24th? I give the Tiger loss details for the 17th, AHF members have a well-known secondary source to see Tiger loss results through the 24th.
Last edited by Miles Krogfus on 14 Feb 2016 07:18, edited 3 times in total.

Michael Kenny
Member
Posts: 7062
Joined: 07 May 2002 19:40
Location: Teesside

Re: 506 Abt. Tiger II #313 November 17,1944

Post by Michael Kenny » 13 Feb 2016 20:47

Miles Krogfus wrote:Thanks Michael for the 67th data, but you do not give specific claims for the 17th.
The 66th was also engaged versus Panthers/Tigers then and the other days you inject into my original post.
I injected nothing. You gave specific German claims for 1 day , Nov 17 1944. You say 58 US tanks were knocked out. I gave you the 67th AAR that says for that date they had at most 32 tanks damaged. The 67th also say the had 21 medium and 11 Light tanks destroyed in the whole of November.
Miles Krogfus wrote:What did the 66th claim as kills for that day and for the rest of these busy combats?
You have yet to show 66th were involved. You gave a 'quote' for a man from 67th. I just follow your lead.

Why can you not link the references that made you say 58 tanks were knocked out?
It is obvious you have the TD Units AARs.
Why not share so we can see the logic of your claims

Miles Krogfus
Member
Posts: 471
Joined: 08 May 2015 19:54
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: 506 Abt. Tiger II #313 November 17,1944

Post by Miles Krogfus » 13 Feb 2016 21:47

The book "The Siegfried Line Campaign" by Charles MacDonald, Office of Military History, Dept. of the Army. U.S. Government Printing Office 1963 has 58 tanks/TD destroyed or damaged. This volume is the ultimate source for the full lost from the units figures on the 17th, so those later repaired here or there or nowhere are included. This Dept. of the Army WW II history books series is the "Official" word. The series authors used documents that allowed the most complete information to be published.
On 24 November the 9th Panzer Division scored its "2324 Panzer abgeschossen."
Last edited by Miles Krogfus on 14 Feb 2016 07:21, edited 2 times in total.

Michael Kenny
Member
Posts: 7062
Joined: 07 May 2002 19:40
Location: Teesside

Re: 506 Abt. Tiger II #313 November 17,1944

Post by Michael Kenny » 14 Feb 2016 00:01

Miles Krogfus wrote:The book "The Siegfried Line Campaign" by Charles MacDonald, Office of Military History, Dept. of the Army. U.S. Government Printing Office 1963 has 58 tanks/TD destroyed or damaged. This volume is the ultimate source for the full lost from the units figures on the 17th, so those later repaired here or there or nowhere are included. This Dept. of the Army books series is the "Official" word.
No. The 'ultimate source' for any Unit loss are the Unit documents.
Post the section where a specific claim is made that 58 tanks were knocked out in one day.

Miles Krogfus
Member
Posts: 471
Joined: 08 May 2015 19:54
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: 506 Abt. Tiger II #313 November 17,1944

Post by Miles Krogfus » 18 Feb 2016 01:49

From "Operations of Company E, 67 AR 16-20 November, Inclusive" Capt. James McCartney CO E company: "It was very misty and foggy and maximum visibility was 500 yards.' Our attack had tanks of TF#1 and TF#2." Just after 0830 high velocity direct fire from Gereonsweiler, west of G. and SE of G. "The fire was very accurate, but at first our tanks were unable to locate the source." The engagement lasted only about 15 minutes, after which the order was given to withdraw. In those 15 minutes Company E alone lost 8 tanks. It did spot "two or three hostile tanks, at least two of which were hit, though the shots ricocheted off." Other task force elements were so strongly hit that TF#2 and TF#1A both had to withdraw. "The enemy had been able to out maneuver our forces." Another Company E tank bogged down, its rescue tank was shot and burned. At day's end E Company had only 3 M-4's left.

Michael Kenny
Member
Posts: 7062
Joined: 07 May 2002 19:40
Location: Teesside

Re: 506 Abt. Tiger II #313 November 17,1944

Post by Michael Kenny » 18 Feb 2016 06:30

The reluctance/inability to produce German kill claims for this action suggests to me that they are far below the numbers being quoted. It is obvious that the 'kill' numbers are culled from a number of secondary post war US accounts and the hope is no one notices that the German 'claims' are nothing of the sort and it is a simple working backwards from the highest US loss total.
The situation was that 9th Army's XIX Corps (2nd AD, 29 & 30 Inf Div.) were tasked with securing a Roer crossing at Juelich. On 16 November 2nd AD was split into CCA & CCB.

CCB
TF1 (1/67 , 2/67) c 80 tanks
TF2 (3/67) c 50 tanks
TFX (Coy H 1/67) c 18 tanks

CCA
Force A (2/67) c 50 tanks
Force B (1/67) c 50 tanks

Note this was during a severe shortage of replacement Shermans and most units ran below TOE.
Also note that of 2nd AD's 18 tank coy 6 were Stuart light tanks coy. (c.100) and 12 M4 medium tank coy. (c.200)
G Company in 3/67 in TF2 is documented as having just 5 tanks on Nov 17 rather than 18. The c.40 losses on Nov 16 had thinned the ranks of 2nd AD and it would be unwise for anyone reading that Company X was down to 7 tanks on Nov 17th to assume that means you subtract 7 from the TOE of 18 and thus 11 were knocked out.

16th November went well and Puffendorf was the limit of the US advance. The only real setback on 16 November was a failed attempt to take Appledorf where TF2 lost 7 tanks to AP shot. No German tanks were in action on Nov 17 and 2nd AD tank casualties (not total losses)were c. 40 the majority to mines or simply 'bogging' in the mud and the rest to Infantry weapons.
Alarmed by this breakthrough 2 panzer units were sent forward to attack and retake Puffendorf on Nov 17.

On Nov 17 whilst TF1 was forming up in front of Puffendorf it was attacked. Suffered losses and retreated back into Puffendorf. Part of CCA (2/66 A.Rgt) was sent into Puffendorf during the battle. The Germans attacked Puffendorf all day but failed to dislodge the US troops.


TF2 & TFX was engaged near Immendorf to the north of TF1 and pushed back into Immendorf. German attacks during the day failed to dislodge them either. The German offensive failed to recapture Puffendorf/Immendorf and all it achieved was to check the US advance for 2 days.



There are lots of numbers bandied about for 2nd AD losses on Nov 17. The Unit AARs mention 4 medium tank losses in 2/66 and TFX are said to have also lost 4 mediums. TF1 are said to have lost 32 tanks but comments that most are not destroyed.

There is a 1949 study:
http://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/ref/ ... ll8/id/830

(Warning, it is in 5 parts. Make sure you download them all)

with some interesting facts.
It shows 2nd AD equipment losses for the campaign in some detail (1309 flashlights & 48 wrist watches no less!) and reports 21 M4 75mm, 15 M4 76mm & 5 Light tanks as 'lost' . A total of 41 for all the battles not just Nov 17.
It also shows how many vehicles were evacuated to rear workshops. Though 60 tanks & SPG were backloaded because of enemy action a whopping 166 tanks and SPG were damaged by non enemy action. If you read the AAR of the Tank Units attached to the 2 Infantry Divisions in XIX Corps you will see how mud and mines were a much bigger tank killer than any German tank.

29 ID 747 TB 18-22 Nov = 18 tanks KO & 19 Mechanical failure
https://server16040.contentdm.oclc.org/ ... e=3509.pdf

30 ID 743 TB 16-23 Nov. = 18 KO of which 5 mined, 5 bogged and 1 HC.
http://cgsc.cdmhost.com/cdm/ref/collect ... l8/id/3810

Return to “The Ron Klages Panzer & other vehicles Section”