Sunken Tigers in the Seine

Discussions on the vehicles used by the Axis forces. Hosted by Christian Ankerstjerne
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Xavier
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Post by Xavier » 14 Apr 2007 18:11

there are Tigers.....just there also are big problems
let's pretend, for a moment that you locate the tiger, and you REALLY want to recover it.

who owns it right now,?
who will own it after you bring it to the surface?
who many (how many) people and entities are just waiting to claim a part, even whitout effort on their part.
who the law will side with..?
who will put the money (lots of money needed.)
where it will stay? samur will be one of the first to apply for ownership, you can be sure of that.

a couple years ago I personally was involved in a team effort to recover a tiger ferom the padeborn school sunk near Nedersee in Germany, but bureocrasy and redtape kept us from going further. even the greens jumped in to boicott the effort.


we wanted it but we could not keep it because of ownership issues, and we could not do it without a explosives disposal team present, that meant giving advance notice to authorities of our work, and then they could claim the tank as theirs.

Panzermuseum munster wanted it but was not willing to spend a single deustche mark on the effort.

a big TV corporation had money ready, but then the greens said we could not dig the site, because a rare stork nested there, and was a protected species, they said first clear all legal issues. (that was 4-5 years ago....)

I think at present time, there is still not clear ownership of war materiel in germany ( and I not talking field gear, but big things, like artillery, panzers, buildings etc etc.) technically, all german war materiel belonged to the allied commision, but the commission disolved after the berlin wall fell..tthen......?
and so on....

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Xavier
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Post by Xavier » 14 Apr 2007 18:24

also a while ago, there was talk of a Königstiger that is supposed to be in a pond called Spintikteichen near Maria Wörth. This is in the vicinity of a large lake called Wörthersee.

more toughts:
check german law: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=49964

so there it goes...
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Larso
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Post by Larso » 15 Apr 2007 00:33

Well that makes it all very difficult. The Panzer Museum doesn't appear to be helping itself as much as I'd have expected.

What's the story behind that Padeborn tank?

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Post by Larso » 15 Apr 2007 00:41

Here's a discussion on another forum that seems to be related -

http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/vie ... rt=15.html

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cbo
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Post by cbo » 16 Apr 2007 11:16

Larso wrote:Well that makes it all very difficult. The Panzer Museum doesn't appear to be helping itself as much as I'd have expected.
They dont have a lot of money to work with in the first place. AFAIK when they have aquired vehicles in the past, it has either been as gifts, as exchanges or by the way of monetary donations from private sources, companies etc. They will have to spend a lot of money restoring it anyway, even if it is only restored for display.

In this case, if there are legal issues involved both with regards to ownership and enviromental issues, then there will be money to spends on lawyers for a few years and then there is the whole effort of getting it out of the lake without destroying the enviroment etc.

No one will of course sink a single eurocent into the project unless the legal issues are cleared first.

Btw, what kind of evidence is there that a tank actually exist in the lake? Have anyone dived down and verified that it is actually there and that it is a Tiger tank?

There is, after all, no shortage of stories of German tanks being in odd places, but often without any actual, solid, evidence.

Claus B

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Post by Auseklis » 16 Apr 2007 11:44

Xavier wrote: I think at present time, there is still not clear ownership of war materiel in germany ( and I not talking field gear, but big things, like artillery, panzers, buildings etc etc.) technically, all german war materiel belonged to the allied commision, but the commission disolved after the berlin wall fell..tthen......?
Nope, you're wrong! All that stuff belongs to the Federal Government, represented by the Bundesanstalt für Immobilienaufgaben.

There was a find of 15 aircraft engines on private property in 2001/2002 (Frankfurt Airport). Based on §134 GG (Grundgesetz) the Bundesvermögensverwaltung (now part of the above mentioned BImA) got them and handed them over to the airforce museum at Gatow).

(If you like to know: 2x DB 601, 3x DB 605, 2x DB 603, 7x Jumo 213, 1x BMW 801)

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Xavier
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Post by Xavier » 16 Apr 2007 17:14

@ cbo
re:
Btw, what kind of evidence is there that a tank actually exist in the lake? Have anyone dived down and verified that it is actually there and that it is a Tiger tank?
we interviewed various witnesses to the event, the tank was driving from padeborn to the front when the crew decided to call it quits and leave it, and then tried to drive it into the lake, but sank in the shore, after interviewing various local witness, we discovered the tank was visible for a number of years as it sank slowly into the mud.

we located the general area of the wreck and using ground penetrating sonar located a target. we got permit to drill a couple cores and struck steel/armor and were able to recover fittings consistent with our search. that is all I can disclose.

on subsequent visits to the area we were able to dive the lake and near the shore, along the road located a big dump that included , but not limited to infantry weapons, artillery mgs, flak, a complete 88 piece with carriage, ammo, etc etc.all of these were turned to local authorities (Kampfmittelräumdienst)


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p.d. we estimated then a cost of about 250K usd just to recover the tank, personal expenses (plane tickets, time, etc etc ) aside.
The cost covered about a week of a couple cat diggers, a couple bulldozers, 2 days rental for a 600 ton crane, and a lowloader to move the tank to a safe location a few kms away and security for the event.

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Post by Auseklis » 17 Apr 2007 08:53

You would have to find TWO of them at least and recover them on your cost. Then you might be able to get a deal on keeping ONE. I just found out the the owner of the Frankfurt Airport (FRAPORT AG) was allowed to keep 2 (2x DB 605) out of the 15 engines as compensation for the recovery.
There would be further problems with exporting regulations for war arms.

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Post by Hoover » 17 Apr 2007 09:49

Xavier, there is a Tiger I sunk in the Schwerienr See in Northern Germany.
Do you mean this Tiger with the Negersee? Or is there an additional Tiger I?

The Tiger from Schwerin is lying in a "Europäisches Naturschutzgebiet" (European Area for Nature Conservation).

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Post by Larso » 17 Apr 2007 11:47

I can understand your frustration Xavier. What a fantastic experience it would've been to work on that project!

Is there now another sunken Tiger at Schwerin? What is it's story?

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Re: Sunken Tigers in the Seine

Post by Larso » 15 Apr 2009 10:57

Well it's been 2 years since we examined this issue. Has anyone heard or read anything of relevance since?

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Xavier
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Re: Sunken Tigers in the Seine

Post by Xavier » 15 Apr 2009 16:30

cheers Larso..!
Tiger is still asleep at the lake, hopefully the future wil deserve better
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Re: Sunken Tigers in the Seine

Post by Mimbrogno » 15 Apr 2009 16:51

Who owns the land or riverbed where the tanks reside? is it public or government property, or does a private party own it?

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Xavier
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Re: Sunken Tigers in the Seine

Post by Xavier » 15 Apr 2009 20:37

public, protected area, as Hoover mentioned before, a " "Europäisches Naturschutzgebiet" (European Area for Nature Conservation)."
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Larso
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Re: Sunken Tigers in the Seine

Post by Larso » 04 Oct 2014 12:50

Bump!

It's five years since this issue was last touched on. I wonder if there is any new information?

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