Paul von Hindenburg - hero or villain?

[George L Gregory]

The standard procedure as I have read in history books was that the president had to approve the policies of the chancellor. The enabling act makes it clear laws can be passed without the approval of the Reichstag. The question again is what role the president played.

laws of the Reich may also be enacted by the government of the Reich.

What is the government of the Reich? The chancellor alone or the chancellor and president?

What do you think [the President's] “rights” were exactly?

Articles 41 to 59 of the Weimar constitution outline the president's powers. I left a link a couple posts earlier to the constitution. I see nothing in the enabling act saying the president's authority is specifically being taken away. Please explain article 2 of the enabling act:

Article 2. The national laws enacted by the Reich Cabinet may deviate from the Constitution as long as they do not affect the position of the Reichstag and the Reichsrat. The powers of the President remain undisturbed.

You keep saying the president has no authority yet article 2 says otherwise.

The government was the cabinet.

Again, you are forgetting that the Enabling Act overrode the previous rights and regulations. Any law could be enacted and enforced a day after it was mentioned without any approval required.

Hindenburg’s rights were to appoint the chancellor and cabinet, foreign relations and amnesties. He was not required to sign or approve of any laws after the Enabling Act was passed.

Hindenburg could do absolutely nothing with regard to any laws passed by Hitler/the cabinet. No approval was required for any law passed and that’s why Hitler was able to enact so many laws in the first couple of years of being chancellor before Hindenburg’s death.

[john2]

Even if Hidenburg was powerless to stop the laws themselves he could still dismiss Hitler and could protest. He did protest the law dismissing Jews [from the civil service I believe?] and actually got Hitler to exempt Jewish veterans of the first world war. So he could intervene if he wanted to.

[George L Gregory]

Even if Hidenburg was powerless to stop the laws themselves he could still dismiss Hitler and could protest. He did protest the law dismissing Jews [from the civil service I believe?] and actually got Hitler to exempt Jewish veterans of the first world war. So he could intervene if he wanted to.

Show me evidence that after the Enabling Act he could dismiss Hitler.

You initially stated that Hindenburg had to approve of Hitler’s laws in 1933-34 but that was not the case at all.

Hindenburg cared about the veterans of the First World War, not Jews. He cared about Jewish veterans not Jews.

[john2]

You initially stated that Hindenburg had to approve of Hitler’s laws in 1933-34 but that was not the case at all.

I never conceded the point I just didn't want to argue about it anymore. I am not the type to go back and forth in circles. I believe it is up for interpretation.

Show me evidence that after the Enabling Act he could dismiss Hitler.

In an earlier post you said:

Hindenburg’s rights were to appoint the chancellor and cabinet, foreign relations and amnesties. He was not required to sign or approve of any laws after the Enabling Act was passed.

Now you contradict yourself saying Hindenburg had no powers at all. Again article 2 of the enabling act:

Article 2. The national laws enacted by the Reich Cabinet may deviate from the Constitution as long as they do not affect the position of the Reichstag and the Reichsrat. The powers of the President remain undisturbed.

It says in black and white his "powers are undisturbed." How can he have no authority if his powers are "undisturbed?" And among his normal powers is the right to dismiss the chancellor.

Hindenburg cared about the veterans of the First World War, not Jews. He cared about Jewish veterans not Jews.

I agree. The point was he intervened in a law Hitler had passed.

[George L Gregory]

You initially stated that Hindenburg had to approve of Hitler’s laws in 1933-34 but that was not the case at all.

I never conceded the point I just didn't want to argue about it anymore. I am not the type to go back and forth in circles. I believe it is up for interpretation.

The facts speak for themselves. Neither Hindenburg nor anyone else could do anything to stop Hitler once The Enabling Act was passed in the Reichstag.

What is 'open for interpretation' is to what degree Hindenburg's rights were after the law was passed, but was not open for interpretation is what you initially - Hindenburg had to pass every law Hitler made in 1933-34 - because that is simply not true.

Ironically it was Hindenburg who allowed the act to get passed and become the law and by doing so he gave away his overall authority.

Show me evidence that after the Enabling Act he could dismiss Hitler.

In an earlier post you said:

Hindenburg’s rights were to appoint the chancellor and cabinet, foreign relations and amnesties. He was not required to sign or approve of any laws after the Enabling Act was passed.

Now you contradict yourself saying Hindenburg had no powers at all. Again article 2 of the enabling act:

Article 2. The national laws enacted by the Reich Cabinet may deviate from the Constitution as long as they do not affect the position of the Reichstag and the Reichsrat. The powers of the President remain undisturbed.

It says in black and white his "powers are undisturbed." How can he have no authority if his powers are "undisturbed?" And among his normal powers is the right to dismiss the chancellor.

Hindenburg appointed Hitler as chancellor. Hindenburg set out the cabinet in 1933.

Hindenburg had no authority in the sense that Hitler didn't require Hindenburg's approval or the Reichstag's approval to pass and enact a law.

My initial point was that in post #5 you posted:

It is worth mentioning that from 1933 to 1934 Hindenburg as president had to approve every law passed by Hitler.

That's just not true. Hitler didn't have to get Hindenburg's approval for a law and he enacted and enforced many laws in 1933-34 without the approval of Hindenburg or the Reichstag.

Hindenburg cared about the veterans of the First World War, not Jews. He cared about Jewish veterans not Jews.

I agree. The point was he intervened in a law Hitler had passed.

But it doesn't mean that Hindenburg was anti-Semitic anymore than the average German.

[john2]

My initial point was that in post #5 you posted:

It is worth mentioning that from 1933 to 1934 Hindenburg as president had to approve every law passed by Hitler.

That's just not true. Hitler didn't have to get Hindenburg's approval for a law and he enacted and enforced many laws in 1933-34 without the approval of Hindenburg or the Reichstag.

I had initially believed the president had to approve everything Hitler did. Having reread the enabling act - it has been awhile since I have read it one could argue that Hitler could act alone. Although I still believe the law doesn't make this point clear but it may have been done on purpose in order to make it easier for the centrists to vote for it. The Reichstag was also not abolished but kept around. In any case I think we have gotten somewhat off topic. I do not think that Hindenburg was necessarily a villain though he did go along with Hitler but so did many others.

[Hans1906]

A broken old man, no longer able to understand it at all, a tragic figure.

There was a framed picture of Hindenburg hanging on the wall in my great-grandfather's attic in the 1950s.

The photo never found its way into the apartment, and yet the great-grandfather kept the picture.
For what reason, very definitely staunch German reasons, a typical German sensibility...
When the house was demolished in 1968, nobody found a way into this attic.
For me the paradise of my childhood years, flags, banners, toys, endless boxes full of material, perfect for a little boy to delve into all of it very deeply...

A little boy's journey, the attic, I've loved sneaking through there, over and over again...

Can you imagine the "smell" of all the old stuff, opening all the boxes, looking at the millions of glas negatives from all these boxes...
Sometimes I dream all this, everything is still here, lost, but still here...


Hans