Paul von Hindenburg - hero or villain?

[Sludge Factory]

On one hand, he did appoint Hitler chancellor (although he may have been senile by 1933), but on the other hand, he seemed to disagree with Hitler's more evil policies (the full extent of Hitler's evil wasn't really visible in 1933-34, Hindenburg would likely have been surprised by the Holocaust), such as when he forced Hitler to amend his laws kicking Jews out of the civil service to make an exception for WWI veterans and their families (which was almost 50% of Jewish civil servants in Germany).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontk%C3%A4mpferprivileg

Had he lived longer, would he have tried to rein in Hitler's excesses (i.e. Kristallnacht, Nuremburg Laws, invading Poland)? Would he have likely succeeded?

If Hindenburg had lived until after the war, would he have been tried/convicted at Nuremberg?

[Cosgar]

When Hindenburg made his case for the Jewish WW1 veterans, he was concerned only with the fact that they were veterans. The other Jews who were losing their jobs did not interest him in the slightest.

[Helly Angel]

Let us not forget that Hindenburg congratulated and thanked Hitler by telegram for the suppression of the Röhm rebellion (June 30, 1934), which, intercepted in time, prevented a confrontation between the SA that tended to Socialism against the Army. According to testimony in Nuremberg of Göring and Meissner on said telegram.

[Helly Angel]

The original postcard of this picture.

[john2]

I was actually thinking of starting a similar thread. Hindenburg was Hitler lite so to speak of. He was a rightwing nationalist and wanted to restore the monarchy. I believe he was also anti Jewish. He didn't have a problem getting rid of democracy as long as it was done legally without a civil war. His opposition to Hitler seems to have been based more on a personal dislike of him then principled opposition. It is worth mentioning that from 1933 to 1934 Hindenburg as president had to approve every law passed by Hitler. Hindenburg allowed concentration camps to be setup, the parties to be banned and so on. To be fair though he was in mental decline at this time due to his advanced age. It's not entirely clear how much he was aware of.

[Helly Angel]

The senility of the president was a popular joke, I remember reading in Zentner's Encyclopedia of the Third Reich a variety of German jokes of the time, one of them said: a flower seller brings a flower arrangement to the house of President Hindeburg, to the deliver the bouquet that was large, leaves the dirty wrapping paper on a table and the butler tells him: "Please don't leave it there or the president will sign it and promulgate it tomorrow in the Gazette!"

[George L Gregory]

I was actually thinking of starting a similar thread. Hindenburg was Hitler lite so to speak of. He was a rightwing nationalist and wanted to restore the monarchy. I believe he was also anti Jewish. He didn't have a problem getting rid of democracy as long as it was done legally without a civil war. His opposition to Hitler seems to have been based more on a personal dislike of him then principled opposition. It is worth mentioning that from 1933 to 1934 Hindenburg as president had to approve every law passed by Hitler. Hindenburg allowed concentration camps to be setup, the parties to be banned and so on. To be fair though he was in mental decline at this time due to his advanced age. It's not entirely clear how much he was aware of.

John, you are wrong.

Hitler didn’t need Hindenburg’s approval to pass any law. After the Enabling Act was passed on 23 March 1933 Hitler was able to make and enforce laws without the approval of the Reichstag or Hindenburg.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act_of_1933

[George L Gregory]

On one hand, he did appoint Hitler chancellor (although he may have been senile by 1933), but on the other hand, he seemed to disagree with Hitler's more evil policies (the full extent of Hitler's evil wasn't really visible in 1933-34, Hindenburg would likely have been surprised by the Holocaust), such as when he forced Hitler to amend his laws kicking Jews out of the civil service to make an exception for WWI veterans and their families (which was almost 50% of Jewish civil servants in Germany).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontk%C3%A4mpferprivileg

“Evil” is entirely subjective and we aren’t really on this forum to debate whether or not Adolf Hitler was evil, but I highly doubt anyone in 1933 would have seriously thought the crimes committed during the Third Reich would ever have happened to the extent that they did. Hitler didn’t even discuss the “Jewish Question” in the election campaigns in the early 1930s and he didn’t even mention it during his first speech as Chancellor. Germans overall didn’t support the Nazis because of antisemitism. Hitler wasn’t appointed as Chancellor under the notion of getting German Jews out of Germany or anything like that.

Had he lived longer, would he have tried to rein in Hitler's excesses (i.e. Kristallnacht, Nuremburg Laws, invading Poland)? Would he have likely succeeded?

No one can know for sure.

He wouldn’t have been able to change anything though because as we already know there were quite a few Nazis who condemned the atrocities that were carried out but it was pointless because of how the Nazi state worked and there were laws criminalising people who criticised the Nazi Party, the leaders of the Nazi state, etc.

If Hindenburg had lived until after the war, would he have been tried/convicted at Nuremberg?

Why would he have been tried and/or convicted at the Nuremberg Trials?

[john2]

That was Hindeburg's interpretation because he didn't want to govern anymore. He allowed himself to become a figure head to relieve himself of the mental strain of governing. He had wanted to retire but his advisors wouldn't let him. By the time of the enabling act Hindenburg had come to rely on Papen to watch Hitler but Papen for his reasons didn't oppose him. For starters Papen also wanted democracy destroyed. By the time he realized Hitler was taking all the power it was too late. Even if it was true that Hindeburg couldn't stop the laws Hitler passed he still had the power to fire Hitler as chancellor. I will make another post on this in a moment as I need to study the law again.

[john2]

Ok article Article 2 of the enabling act says:

Laws enacted by the government of the Reich may deviate from the constitution as long as they do not affect the institutions of the Reichstag and the Reichsrat. The rights of the President remain unaffected.

Article 50 of the constitution says:

All orders and decrees of the President of the Reich, including those concerning the armed force, require for their validity the counter-signature of the Chancellor or of the competent national minister. Responsibility is accepted by the act of counter-signature.

I had believed it had worked the other way round as well. Schleicher for example had to wanted to dissolve the Reichstag but Hindenburg would not let him.

In any case Article 53 says:

The Chancellor and, upon his recommendation, the national ministers shall be appointed and removed by the President of the Reich.

You can read the full constitution here: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Weimar_c ... l_Ministry

[George L Gregory]

Ok article Article 2 of the enabling act says:

Laws enacted by the government of the Reich may deviate from the constitution as long as they do not affect the institutions of the Reichstag and the Reichsrat. The rights of the President remain unaffected.

Article 50 of the constitution says:

All orders and decrees of the President of the Reich, including those concerning the armed force, require for their validity the counter-signature of the Chancellor or of the competent national minister. Responsibility is accepted by the act of counter-signature.

I had believed it had worked the other way round as well. Schleicher for example had to wanted to dissolve the Reichstag but Hindenburg would not let him.

In any case Article 53 says:

The Chancellor and, upon his recommendation, the national ministers shall be appointed and removed by the President of the Reich.

You can read the full constitution here: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Weimar_c ... l_Ministry

The Enabling Act overrode the Weimar Constitution.

Article 1. National laws can be enacted by the Reich Cabinet as well as in accordance with the procedure established in the Constitution. This also applies to the laws referred to in Article 85, Paragraph 2, and in Article 87 of the Constitution.

Article 2. The national laws enacted by the Reich Cabinet may deviate from the Constitution as long as they do not affect the position of the Reichstag and the Reichsrat. The powers of the President remain undisturbed.

Article 3. The national laws enacted by the Reich Cabinet shall be prepared by the Chancellor and published in the Reichsgesetzblatt. They come into effect, unless otherwise specified, the day after their publication. Articles 68-77 of the Constitution do not apply to the laws enacted by the Reich Cabinet.

Article 4. Treaties of the Reich with foreign states which concern matters of national legislation do not require the consent of the bodies participating in legislation. The Reich Cabinet is empowered to issue the necessary provisions for the implementation of these treaties.

Article 5. This law becomes effective on the day of its publication. It becomes invalid on April 1, 1937; it also becomes invalid if the present Reich Cabinet is replaced by another.

Reich President von Hindenburg
Reich Chancellor Adolf Hitler
Reich Minister of the Interior Frick
Reich Minister for Foreign Affairs Baron von Neurath
Reich Minister of Finances Count Schwerin von Krosigk

https://ghdi.ghi-dc.org/sub_document.cf ... nt_id=1496

Your claim that Hindenburg had to approve every law that was passed in 1933-34 is not true. He had no say. That’s precisely why even before his death Germany had been turned into a dictatorship.

Article 2 meant nothing in reality. Hindenburg had no power and could not overrule the only then Chancellor because of precisely the Enabling Act.

[john2]

I understand the constitution was changed. At issue here is what authority Hindenburg had. You are arguing that Hindenburg could do nothing. But
article 2 of the enabling act said he retained "all his rights." Which meant at the very least he could dismiss Hitler - at least in theory as I understand the political issues especially as Hitler gained more power. I am not a German legal expert here so we might have to agree to disagree here. The impression I had always had was that Hindenburg still had authority but went along with Hitler a) because he sympathized with what he was doing and b) because he wasn't always getting the whole story. That Papen and his chief of staff lied to him about certain things and the president because of his mental state could not discern the truth.

[George L Gregory]

I understand the constitution was changed. At issue here is what authority Hindenburg had. You are arguing that Hindenburg could do nothing. But
article 2 of the enabling act said he retained "all his rights." Which meant at the very least he could dismiss Hitler - at least in theory as I understand the political issues especially as Hitler gained more power. I am not a German legal expert here so we might have to agree to disagree here. The impression I had always had was that Hindenburg still had authority but went along with Hitler a) because he sympathized with what he was doing and b) because he wasn't always getting the whole story. That Papen and his chief of staff lied to him about certain things and the president because of his mental state could not discern the truth.

You initially stated Hindenburg had to approve of the laws passed in 1933-34 and that’s not true.

Hindenburg signed the Enabling Act.

Laws enacted by the government of the Reich may deviate from the constitution as long as they do not affect the institutions of the Reichstag and the Reichsrat. The rights of the President remain unaffected.

What do you think the “rights” were exactly?

The Enabling Act gave Hitler the ability to pass and enforce laws without the approval of the Reichstag or Hindenburg. Im not too sure what you are finding difficult to understand. It was that act which turned the state into basically a dictatorship.

Hitler's first act as chancellor was to ask Hindenburg to dissolve the Reichstag, so that the Nazis and Deutschnationale Volkspartei ("German Nationalists" or DNVP) could win an outright majority to pass the Enabling Act that would give the new government power to rule by decree, supposedly for the next four years. Unlike laws passed by Article 48, which could be cancelled by a majority in the Reichstag, under the Enabling Act the Chancellor could pass laws by decree that could not be cancelled by a vote in the Reichstag.

Hindenburg didn’t sympathise with Hitler, the former couldn’t stand the latter! It’s true that Hindenburg liked Hitler’s idea of creating a people’s community.

[George L Gregory]

I am not a German legal expert here so we might have to agree to disagree here. The impression I had always had was that Hindenburg still had authority but went along with Hitler a) because he sympathized with what he was doing and b) because he wasn't always getting the whole story. That Papen and his chief of staff lied to him about certain things and the president because of his mental state could not discern the truth.

You don’t need to be a “German legal expert”, the text in black and white is as clear as day:

laws of the Reich may also be enacted by the government of the Reich.

Laws enacted by the government of the Reich may deviate from the constitution as long as they do not affect the institutions of the Reichstag and the Reichsrat.

Laws enacted by the Reich government shall be issued by the Chancellor and announced in the Reich Gazette. They shall take effect on the day following the announcement, unless they prescribe a different date.

As you can quite evidently see, Hitler/the Nazi government didn’t need any approval from the Reichstag or Hindenburg and their laws were to be enforced “the day following” that they were mentioned unless stated otherwise.

[john2]

The standard procedure as I have read in history books was that the president had to approve the policies of the chancellor. The enabling act makes it clear laws can be passed without the approval of the Reichstag. The question again is what role the president played.

laws of the Reich may also be enacted by the government of the Reich.

What is the government of the Reich? The chancellor alone or the chancellor and president?

What do you think [the President's] “rights” were exactly?

Articles 41 to 59 of the Weimar constitution outline the president's powers. I left a link a couple posts earlier to the constitution. I see nothing in the enabling act saying the president's authority is specifically being taken away. Please explain article 2 of the enabling act:

Article 2. The national laws enacted by the Reich Cabinet may deviate from the Constitution as long as they do not affect the position of the Reichstag and the Reichsrat. The powers of the President remain undisturbed.

You keep saying the president has no authority yet article 2 says otherwise.