Hungarians = Aryan?

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George L Gregory
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Hungarians = Aryan?

Post by George L Gregory » 10 Feb 2021 17:22

After the early 1930s, did the Nazis ever mention what they thought of Hungarians? What were Hungarians defined as exactly?

Following the 1933 Law for the Restoration of the Professional Civil Service decree, the Nazis briefly used the following definition of 'Aryan':
The Aryans (also Indo-Germans, Japhetiten) are one of the three branches of the Caucasian (white race);they are divided into the western (European), that is the German, Roman, Greek, Slav, Lett, Celt [and] Albanesen, and the eastern (Asiatic) Aryans, that is the Indian (Hindu) and Iranian (Persian, Afghan, Armenian, Georgian, Kurd). Non-Aryans are therefore: 1. the members of two other races, namely the Mongolian (yellow) and the Negroid (black) races; 2. the members of the two other branches of the Caucasian race, namely the Semites (Jews, Arabs) and Hamites (Berbers). The Finns and the Hungarians belong to the Mongoloid race; but it is hardly the intention of the law to treat them as non-Aryans. Thus . . . the non-Jewish members of the European Volk are Aryans...
But, this was quickly changed because it included non-Europeans.
This definition of Aryan was clearly unacceptable. Not only did it include large numbers of non-European peoples such as Kurds and Afghans, but it also made the racial laws seem to be based on political expedience rather than science. Gercke replied that he would use the definition of Aryan established by the Expert Advisor for Population and Racial Policy ( Sachverstandigenbeirats fur Bevolkerungs- und RassenpolitiH)-. “An Aryan is one who is tribally related ( stammverivandte ) to German blood. An Aryan is the descendant of a Volk domiciled in Europe in a closed tribal settlement ( Volkstumssiedlung) since recorded history.” This definition managed to include Finns and Hungarians, and exclude Kurds and Afghans. Why this definition was more scientifically accurate, however, Gercke did not say.

In any event, changing Aryan to German or related blood did nothing to clarify who was racially acceptable and who was not. The “racial status” of Finns, Hungarians, and other Eastern Europeans, for example, was in constant flux during the Nazi era. In October 1934, while evaluating the naturalization of a Hungarian citizen, the Interior Ministry informed the Saxon State Chancellery in Dresden that not all Hungarians were “non-Aryans.” According to the Interior Ministry, Hungarians are “tribally alien” (ifremdstammig) but not necessarily “blood alien” (fremdbliitig)—two additional terms adding to the definitional confusion. On the other hand, a 1934 brochure from the series Family, Race, Volk in the National Socialist State simply stated that the Magyars (which it did not define) were Aryans. Four years later, a major commentary to the Nuremberg Laws likewise baldly stated that “the overwhelming majority” of present day Finns and Hungarians were of Aryan blood. Yet the following year an article in the Journal for Racial Science, on the “Racial Diagnosis of the Hungarians,” noted that “opinions on the racial condition of the Hungarians are still very divided.”

In 1942, Hitler decreed that the Finns, at least, were definitely “racially related Germanic neighboring peoples.” There is no indication, however, that this determination was based on new racial-scientific findings. And as late as 1943, no less than four agencies became involved in a dispute over whether a private first-class should receive permission to marry a Hungarian woman. They debated whether the woman was, as initially determined, “German-blooded (Aryan).” Such arbitrariness and imprecision in classification could also be construed as an indication of the “unscientific” nature of the theory undergirding the racial laws. Nazi “racial experts,” however, sought to address this problem. A standard explanation was that: “one cannot pose the question to which race this or that Volk belongs but rather, one can only correctly ask to which race this or that individual member of a Volk belongs.” Thus, as early as October 1934, in relation to the case of the Hungarian citizen, the Interior Ministry informed the Saxon State Chancellery that racial decisions, for Hungarians at least, needed to be made on an individual basis. Similarly, a November 1940 decree of the office of Hitler's deputy for party affairs held that no party member, or member of a party organization, could marry a person who had at least two grandparents who were members of the Czech, Polish, or Magyar “Volk groups” without permission of the regional party official (Gauleiter).
Eric Ehrenreich, The Nazi Ancestral Proof: Genealogy, Racial Science, and the Final Solution, pages 10-11.

Did the Nazis ever clarify their position on the racial status of Hungarians?

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Hans1906
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Re: Hungarians = Aryan?

Post by Hans1906 » 10 Feb 2021 20:05

George, I am aware about the hungarian holocaust, no question. (Pfeilkreuzler)

As a collector of paintings and graphic works, I am quite familiar with the hungarian artist Adolf Fényes.
I own a few of his paintings and graphic works.

Fenyes died in the year 1945, the artist died of starvation in Budapest in 1945, he was a hungarian Jew.

Adolf Fényes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Fényes


Hans1906

P.S. His paintings and graphics are important to me, my only personal reference so far to the Holocaust in Hungary before 1945.
His simple paintings are also deeply touching, as are his drawings and etchings,
it is a very strange feeling to hold the signed works in your own hands...

A late graphic work by Adolf Fényes, for an impression:
(Typical for his later works, landscapes, work, loneliness, poverty..., the drawing not in my private collection!)

I personally draw comparisons to the work of Vincent van Gogh, both artists were a few years apart, the work of both artists is quite comparable, comparable in depth and tragedy.
The etchings of Fényes at that time, a few years before his tragic end, these works are simply fantastic, very simple, very emotional, touching.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
The paradise of the successful lends itself perfectly to a hell for the unsuccessful. (Bertold Brecht on Hollywood)

George L Gregory
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Re: Hungarians = Aryan?

Post by George L Gregory » 16 Mar 2022 11:53

Hungarians, Estonians and Finns who speak Uralic languages so obviously not Indo-European languages were still considered to be Aryans. All European ethnic groups were considered to be Aryans, that is, of ‘related blood’ to the Germans.
Blut aller Völker, die geschlossen in Europa siedeln, als artverwandt bezeichnet. Damit sind z.B. auch die Polen, Russen, Madjaren oder Portugiesen ebenso dem deutschen Blut artverwandt wie die germanischen Völker.

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Re: Hungarians = Aryan?

Post by George L Gregory » 16 Mar 2022 15:25

Hungarians and Germans of Hungarian descent had no problems living in the Third Reich.

gebhk
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Re: Hungarians = Aryan?

Post by gebhk » 17 Mar 2022 11:37

The “racial status” of Finns, Hungarians, and other Eastern Europeans, for example, was in constant flux
This is hardly surprising. It is analogous to tossing in buckets of red, yellow, blue and a couple of other shades of water-soluble dye into a pond, giving it a good stir, arbitrarily deciding that red was the superior colour and then setting about trying to define which arbitrarily defined sections of the pond were 'adequately red'. Aside from being patently inane, it is an exercise in futility when you try to do it in practice so, needless to say, the 'racial status' of any community, because it was an entirely political creation, inevitably had to be decided by political considerations.

gebhk
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Re: Hungarians = Aryan?

Post by gebhk » 17 Mar 2022 11:37

The “racial status” of Finns, Hungarians, and other Eastern Europeans, for example, was in constant flux
This is hardly surprising. It is analogous to tossing in buckets of red, yellow, blue and a couple of other shades of water-soluble dye into a pond, giving it a good stir, arbitrarily deciding that red was the superior colour and then setting about trying to define which arbitrarily defined sections of the pond were 'adequately red'. Aside from being patently inane, it is an exercise in futility when you try to do it in practice so, needless to say, the 'racial status' of any community, because it was an entirely political creation, inevitably had to be decided by political considerations.

Peter89
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Re: Hungarians = Aryan?

Post by Peter89 » 17 Mar 2022 14:40

George L Gregory wrote:
16 Mar 2022 15:25
Hungarians and Germans of Hungarian descent had no problems living in the Third Reich.
Well, it wasn't as smooth as you describe it...

https://adatbank.ro/regio/kisebbsegkuta ... artner.pdf
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

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Totenkomf
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Re: Hungarians = Aryan?

Post by Totenkomf » 17 Mar 2022 15:48

Peter89 wrote:
17 Mar 2022 14:40
George L Gregory wrote:
16 Mar 2022 15:25
Hungarians and Germans of Hungarian descent had no problems living in the Third Reich.
Well, it wasn't as smooth as you describe it...

https://adatbank.ro/regio/kisebbsegkuta ... artner.pdf
Maybe next time post the pdf's text translated to English. For not everyone can undestand Hungarian..
"Befehl ist Befehl"

Peter89
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Re: Hungarians = Aryan?

Post by Peter89 » 17 Mar 2022 16:05

Totenkomf wrote:
17 Mar 2022 15:48
Peter89 wrote:
17 Mar 2022 14:40
George L Gregory wrote:
16 Mar 2022 15:25
Hungarians and Germans of Hungarian descent had no problems living in the Third Reich.
Well, it wasn't as smooth as you describe it...

https://adatbank.ro/regio/kisebbsegkuta ... artner.pdf
Maybe next time post the pdf's text translated to English. For not everyone can undestand Hungarian..
You can use a translator that can be found anywhere on the web. You are familiar with Google products, so open this link:

https://translate.google.com/?sl=auto&tl=en&op=docs

Download the document and put it through the translator. When it's done, click download and open the downloaded document which now you can read in English.

Sometimes it does not give good translations with Hungarian, but at the very least you can have a general picture of its content.
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

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Totenkomf
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Re: Hungarians = Aryan?

Post by Totenkomf » 17 Mar 2022 16:14

Peter89 wrote:
17 Mar 2022 16:05
Totenkomf wrote:
17 Mar 2022 15:48
Peter89 wrote:
17 Mar 2022 14:40
George L Gregory wrote:
16 Mar 2022 15:25
Hungarians and Germans of Hungarian descent had no problems living in the Third Reich.
Well, it wasn't as smooth as you describe it...

https://adatbank.ro/regio/kisebbsegkuta ... artner.pdf
Maybe next time post the pdf's text translated to English. For not everyone can undestand Hungarian..
You can use a translator that can be found anywhere on the web. You are familiar with Google products, so open this link:

https://translate.google.com/?sl=auto&tl=en&op=docs

Download the document and put it through the translator. When it's done, click download and open the downloaded document which now you can read in English.

Sometimes it does not give good translations with Hungarian, but at the very least you can have a general picture of its content.
Okay Peter. I know about the translator on google And I traslated the pdf and the text. But it would be more easier for other users if the text was translated .

Nothing else.

Cheers.
"Befehl ist Befehl"

George L Gregory
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Re: Hungarians = Aryan?

Post by George L Gregory » 18 Mar 2022 19:34

gebhk wrote:
17 Mar 2022 11:37
The “racial status” of Finns, Hungarians, and other Eastern Europeans, for example, was in constant flux
This is hardly surprising. It is analogous to tossing in buckets of red, yellow, blue and a couple of other shades of water-soluble dye into a pond, giving it a good stir, arbitrarily deciding that red was the superior colour and then setting about trying to define which arbitrarily defined sections of the pond were 'adequately red'. Aside from being patently inane, it is an exercise in futility when you try to do it in practice so, needless to say, the 'racial status' of any community, because it was an entirely political creation, inevitably had to be decided by political considerations.
The reason why Hungarians, Finns and Estonians were not as easily defined racially is because they do not speak Indo-European languages. But, for example, Poles and Russians as Slavic peoples they were considered to be racially inferior to the Germanic peoples, they were still considered to be Aryans. But, in the end, the Nazis decided that all Europeans were considered to be Aryans and that was the official legislation by law. In fact, some non-Europeans were also considered to be Aryans - for example, Iranians and Turks.

Although individual Nazis and Nazi propaganda often emphasised that the Germanic people (especially people who were classified as Nordic) were considered to be racially superior to other people, the official document that every Reich citizen had to obtain claimed that the Nazis only spoke of racial admixtures and not racially superior and inferior people, and some Nazi propaganda also claimed that the Nazis only spoke of racial difference rather than racial superiority.

George L Gregory
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Re: Hungarians = Aryan?

Post by George L Gregory » 18 Mar 2022 19:35

Peter89 wrote:
17 Mar 2022 16:05
Totenkomf wrote:
17 Mar 2022 15:48
Peter89 wrote:
17 Mar 2022 14:40
George L Gregory wrote:
16 Mar 2022 15:25
Hungarians and Germans of Hungarian descent had no problems living in the Third Reich.
Well, it wasn't as smooth as you describe it...

https://adatbank.ro/regio/kisebbsegkuta ... artner.pdf
Maybe next time post the pdf's text translated to English. For not everyone can undestand Hungarian..
You can use a translator that can be found anywhere on the web. You are familiar with Google products, so open this link:

https://translate.google.com/?sl=auto&tl=en&op=docs

Download the document and put it through the translator. When it's done, click download and open the downloaded document which now you can read in English.

Sometimes it does not give good translations with Hungarian, but at the very least you can have a general picture of its content.
Please translate the document.

What does it say about Hungarians being Reich citizens? What does it say about Hungarians being classified as Aryans?

George L Gregory
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Re: Hungarians = Aryan?

Post by George L Gregory » 18 Mar 2022 19:39

Were there any Nazis of Hungarian descent?

I mean Nazis who were members of the Nazi Party and who were of Hungarian descent, not people from the Arrow Cross Party or Hungarians who helped the Nazis.

Peter89
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Re: Hungarians = Aryan?

Post by Peter89 » 19 Mar 2022 07:05

George L Gregory wrote:
18 Mar 2022 19:39
Were there any Nazis of Hungarian descent?

I mean Nazis who were members of the Nazi Party and who were of Hungarian descent, not people from the Arrow Cross Party or Hungarians who helped the Nazis.
Yes, there were. In 1938 the Hungarians in Burgenland were enthusiastic for the Nazi takeover: 99% voted for the Anschluss on the referendum held afterwards, they waited and celebrated the Wehrmacht with flowers, on horseback, in their best clothes. One pastor that denied to vote for the Nazi takeover was branded as a communist by his followers and exiled. When the NSDAP party HQ in Berlin demanded that the non-German members should be expelled from the party, the local chief in Felsőőr denied it because all their members were Hungarians.

After that, the Hungarians began to face what was it like to live inside the Reich as a minority: the use of language became curtailed, cultural gatherings banned, schools became state-owned and Germanized, minority rights denied, Jews and gypsies deported. All Hungarian cultural life took place in a barn.

Many Hungarian politicians were arrested, and in response, the after a while the resistance started, also including former members of the NSDAP - as early as 1939.They cut out Hitler-oaks, planted to commemorate Anschluss, etc. During the Nazi occupation, Hungarian villages became bilingual, and the community suffered a terrible blow.
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

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Re: Hungarians = Aryan?

Post by Topspeed » 19 Mar 2022 08:01

There are no aryans it was brainfart from Himmler.

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