WW2 air aces

[LWD]

...All ace scores for WW2 can be safely regarded as accurate if you view them as aerial victories and not as 'kills'.

But what about the case where multiple people claim the same "victory" as theirs? Especially if it's not clear that it was the same? I think this by the way is the source of a lot of the bomber gunner overclaims.

[Tim Smith]

...All ace scores for WW2 can be safely regarded as accurate if you view them as aerial victories and not as 'kills'.

But what about the case where multiple people claim the same "victory" as theirs? Especially if it's not clear that it was the same? I think this by the way is the source of a lot of the bomber gunner overclaims.

True, that makes it difficult. More than one pilot can claim a victory. But multiple pilots can cause damage to an enemy plane.

However, some pilots will damage an enemy plane without realising that they have done so, especially if the damage is light. So many 'damage' cases will go completely unclaimed. This offsets and balances out the multiple claiming cases.

Bomber gunner claims can be understood better by using the level of claims to gauge the severity of the fighting. Lots of claims mean a hard fight took place. Bomber gunners, far more than fighter pilots, will frequently cause very light damage to enemy fighters without realising it (e.g. one or two bullet holes in non-critical areas). Thus partially compensating for the wild overclaiming.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Guys,

It is notable that the top aces of almost every country that flew primarily against the Red Air Force accumulated scores in excess of those achieved by the top Western Allied aces. When this is factored in, the German achievement is brought more into perspective.

Has the reverse study ever been done? Were new German fighter pilots demonstrably more likely to be shot down in air-to-air combat in the last couple of years of the war without scoring a victory than their new Western Allied equivalents? By then German training was much shorter than that of the RAF or USAAF.

Cheers,

Sid.

[bf109 emil]

A puff of smoke and a plane diving down does not equal a kill,

No, but it may equal an 'aerial victory'. The term aerial victory applies to a damaged enemy aircraft that the claimant thinks is destroyed, but is in fact able to return to base or to friendly territory.

When that damaged enemy aircraft returns to base, it becomes non-operational, because it need repairs before it can fly again. So a temporary reduction in the enemy's strength total has been achieved. So that counts as a 'victory'.

All ace scores for WW2 can be safely regarded as accurate if you view them as aerial victories and not as 'kills'.

It seems most list only kills either confirmed or substantiated by another to verify...unsure how tally's ran for other countries but here is a list of Canadian aces and along with kills, it lists probably destroyed (un-verified) and damaged (Hit but continued on or as listed a few hits but not a noticeable amount of damage...http://acesofww2.com/Canada/Canada.htmfrom source here it list Beurlings destroyed along with probable destroyed...his score of planes while in Malta in 4 months seems high for such a short period, but as in an interview with Gunther Rall...he said a lot of high German aces where made by sheer number of planes or targets of opportunity, something which must have been high given these 4 months
-"THE FALCON OF MALTA"
RAF & RCAF F/L - DSO, DFC, DFM & Bar
--- EUROPE ---

01 May 1942 one FW 190 destroyed, Calais
03 May 1942 one FW 190 probably destroyed, Calais a
--- MALTA ---



01 May 1942 one FW 190 destroyed, Calais
03 May 1942 one FW 190 probably destroyed, Calais a
--- MALTA ---

12 June 1942 one Bf 109 damaged (Beurling claimed he blew the tail off)

06 July 1942one Ca Z1007 damaged (one crewman killed)
.............-one Bf 109destroyed
..............-one MC 202destroyeddestroyed
-..............one Reggiane destroyed (Romano Pagliani - KIA)

08 July 1942 two Bf 109sdestroyed
.................one Ju 88 damaged (one engine ablaze)

10 July 1942 one Bf 109destroyed (Hans-Jurgen Frodien - KIA)
...................one MC 202 destroyed (Sgt. Visentini - WIA)

13 July 1942 one Re 2001destroyed (identified by Beurling as an MC 202)
....................two MC 202 destroyed

23 July 1942 one Re 2001destroyed
...................one Ju 88 damaged
27 July 1942 two MC.202sdestroyed (Falerio Gelli -POW, Furio Niclot -KIA)
...................two Bf.109sdestroyed (Karl-Heinz Preu - KIA)
....................two Bf.109s damaged
29 July 1942 one Bf 109 destroyed (Karl-Heinz Witschke - KIA)
8 Aug. 1942 one Bf 109destroyed
..................one Bf 109 damaged

13 Aug. 1942 1/3 Ju 88 destroyed (Hans Schmiedgen & crew - KIA)
25 Sept 1942 two Bf 109s destroyed
...................one Bf 109 damaged

10 Oct. 1942 two Bf.109s destroyed f
13 Oct. 1942 two Bf 109s destroyed (one pilot bailed out)
....................one Ju 88 destroyed (Anton Wilfer & crew - KIA)
....................one Ju.88 damaged
14 Oct. 1942 one Ju 88 destroyed
....................two Bf 109s destroyed (Josef Ederer - WIA)

--- EUROPE ---

24 Sept 1943 one FW 190 destroyed
30 Dec, 1943 one FW 190 destroyed

In an article above he says "Since I've been back in Britain from my last furlough, I've seen only three of them (enemy planes). When I say see, I mean near enough to engage, and I was lucky enough, to shoot them down."
Apparently he feels he has 3 claims not 2 after returning to combat in Europe

[Topspeed]

intresting stats regarding Air Aces of the second world war... below is the list taken from wikipedia, first 100 or so air aces were German... i'm sure this has been noted but i just found it rather intresting.

Regards

Name Country Service Victories
Erich "Bubi" Hartmann Germany Luftwaffe 352
Gerhard Barkhorn Germany Luftwaffe 301
Günther Rall Germany Luftwaffe 275
Otto Kittel Germany Luftwaffe 267
Walter Nowotny Germany Luftwaffe 258
Wilhelm Batz Germany Luftwaffe 237
Erich Rudorffer Germany Luftwaffe 222 (12 Me-262)
Heinz Bär Germany Luftwaffe 220 (16 Me-262)
Hermann Graf Germany Luftwaffe 212
Heinrich Ehrler Germany Luftwaffe 208 (8 Me-262)
Theodor Weissenberger Germany Luftwaffe 208 (8 Me-262)
Hans Philipp Germany Luftwaffe 206
Walter Schuck Germany Luftwaffe 206
Anton Hafner Germany Luftwaffe 204
Helmut Lipfert Germany Luftwaffe 203
Walter Krupinski Germany Luftwaffe 197
Anton Hackl Germany Luftwaffe 192
Joachim Brendel Germany Luftwaffe 189
Max Stotz Germany Luftwaffe 189
Joachim Kirschner Germany Luftwaffe 188
Kurt Brändle Germany Luftwaffe 180
Günther Josten Germany Luftwaffe 178
Johannes Steinhoff Germany Luftwaffe 178
Ernst-Wilhelm Reinert Germany Luftwaffe 174
Günther Schack Germany Luftwaffe 174
Emil Lang Germany Luftwaffe 173
Heinz Schmidt Germany Luftwaffe 173
Horst Ademeit Germany Luftwaffe 166
Wolf-Dietrich Wilcke Germany Luftwaffe 162
Hans-Joachim Marseille Germany Luftwaffe 158
Heinrich Sturm Germany Luftwaffe 158
Gerhard Thyben Germany Luftwaffe 157
Hans Beisswenger Germany Luftwaffe 152
Peter Düttmann Germany Luftwaffe 152
Gordon M. Gollob Germany Luftwaffe 150
Fritz Tegtmeier Germany Luftwaffe 146
Albin Wolf Germany Luftwaffe 144
Kurt Tanzer Germany Luftwaffe 143
Friedrich-Karl "Tutti" Müller Germany Luftwaffe 140
Karl Gratz Germany Luftwaffe 138
Heinrich Setz Germany Luftwaffe 138
Rudolf Trenkel Germany Luftwaffe 138
Walter Wolfrum Germany Luftwaffe 137
Horst-Günther von Fassong Germany Luftwaffe 136
Otto Fönnekold Germany Luftwaffe 136
Karl-Heinz Weber Germany Luftwaffe 136
Joachim Müncheberg Germany Luftwaffe 135
Hans Waldmann Germany Luftwaffe 134
Alfred Grislawski Germany Luftwaffe 133
Franz Schall Germany Luftwaffe 133
Johannes Wiese Germany Luftwaffe 133
Adolf Borchers Germany Luftwaffe 132
Adolf Dickfeld Germany Luftwaffe 132
Erwin Clausen Germany Luftwaffe 132
Wilhelm Lemke Germany Luftwaffe 131
Gerhard Hoffmann Germany Luftwaffe 130
Franz Eisenach Germany Luftwaffe 129
Walther Dahl Germany Luftwaffe 129
Heinrich Sterr Germany Luftwaffe 129
Franz Dörr Germany Luftwaffe 128
Rudolf Rademacher Germany Luftwaffe 126
Josef Zwernemann Germany Luftwaffe 126
Dietrich Hrabak Germany Luftwaffe 125
Wolf Ettel Germany Luftwaffe 124
Herbert Ihlefeld Germany Luftwaffe 123 (+7 in Spain)
Wolfgang Tonne Germany Luftwaffe 122
Heinz Marquardt Germany Luftwaffe 121
Heinz-Wolfgang Schnaufer Germany Luftwaffe 121
Robert Weiss Germany Luftwaffe 121
Erich Leie Germany Luftwaffe 121
Friedrich Obleser Germany Luftwaffe 120
Franz-Josef Beerenbrock Germany Luftwaffe 117
Hans-Joachim Birkner Germany Luftwaffe 117
Jakob Norz Germany Luftwaffe 117
Walter Oesau Germany Luftwaffe 117
Heinz Wernicke Germany Luftwaffe 117
August Lambert Germany Luftwaffe 116
Werner Mölders Germany Luftwaffe 115 (incl. 14 in Spain)
Wilhelm Crinius Germany Luftwaffe 114
Werner Schroer Germany Luftwaffe 114
Hans Dammers Germany Luftwaffe 113
Berthold Korts Germany Luftwaffe 113
Helmut Lent Germany Luftwaffe 113
Kurt Bühlingen Germany Luftwaffe 112
Kurt Ubben Germany Luftwaffe 110
Franz Woidich Germany Luftwaffe 110
Reinhard Seiler Germany Luftwaffe 109
Emil Bitsch Germany Luftwaffe 108
Hans Hahn (pilot) Germany Luftwaffe 108
Bernhard Vechtel Germany Luftwaffe 108
Viktor Bauer Germany Luftwaffe 106
Werner Lucas Germany Luftwaffe 106
Günther Lützow Germany Luftwaffe 105
Adolf Galland Germany Luftwaffe 104
Eberhard von Boremski Germany Luftwaffe 104
Heinz Sachsenberg Germany Luftwaffe 104
Hartmann Grasser Germany Luftwaffe 103
Siegfried Freytag Germany Luftwaffe 102
Friedrich Geisshardt Germany Luftwaffe 102
Egon Mayer Germany Luftwaffe 102
Max-Hellmuth Ostermann Germany Luftwaffe 102
Josef Wurmheller Germany Luftwaffe 102
Rudolf Miethig Germany Luftwaffe 101
Josef Priller Germany Luftwaffe 101
Ulrich Wernitz Germany Luftwaffe 101
Rudolf Müller Germany Luftwaffe 101
Ilmari Juutilainen Finland Finnish Air Force 94
Hiroyoshi Nishizawa Japan Imperial Japanese Navy 87 (some sources indicate kills over 120)
Heinrich Prinz zu Sayn-Wittgenstein Germany Luftwaffe 83
Tetsuzo Iwamoto Japan Imperial Japanese Navy 80
Hans Wind Finland Finnish Air Force 75
Erbo Graf von Kageneck Germany Luftwaffe 67
Heinz Roekker Germany Luftwaffe 64
Saburo Sakai Japan Imperial Japanese Navy 64+
Ivan Kozhedub Soviet Union VVS 62
Aleksandr Ivanovich Pokryshkin Soviet Union VVS 59
Grigoriy Rechkalov Soviet Union VVS 58
Nikolay Gulayev Soviet Union VVS 57
Eino Luukkanen Finland Finnish Air Force 56
Wilhelm-Ferdinand Galland Germany Luftwaffe 55
Kirill Yevstigneyev Soviet Union VVS 53
Martin Drewes Germany Luftwaffe 52
Marmaduke 'Pat' Pattle South African Royal Air Force 51+
Hans-Joachim Jabs Germany Luftwaffe 50
Dmitriy Glinka Soviet Union VVS 50
Arseniy Vorozheikin Soviet Union VVS 46 (+6 in Manchuria)
Alexandr Koldunov Soviet Union VVS 46
Nikolay Skomorohov Soviet Union VVS 46
Urho Lehtovaara Finland Finnish Air Force 44½
Oiva Tuominen Finland Finnish Air Force 44
Alexandru Şerbănescu Romania Romanian Air Force 44
Walther Wever Germany Luftwaffe 44
Constantine Cantacuzino Romania Romanian Air Force 43
Olli Puhakka Finland Finnish Air Force 42
Richard I. Bong USA Army Air Forces 40
James Edgar "Johnnie" Johnson UK Royal Air Force 38
Thomas B. McGuire USA Army Air Forces 38

How many of these german aces downed Russian Spitfires ?

I know Slovakin AF did encounter those: https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php? ... an-reznak/

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Topspeed,

It is certainly technically possible that the Slovaks met Soviet Spitfires, as the only Soviet Spitfire unit was apparently deployed in the Kuban at the same time as the Slovaks were in the Crimea in 1943: https://lend-lease.net/articles-en/spit ... the-kuban/

Cheers,

Sid.

[Topspeed]

I read elsewhere that british had used Murmansk already right after ( or during ) Norway defeat 1940 as a base for the PR IV Spits.

[Sid Guttridge]

At that time the USSR was helping the Germans and did such PR Spitfires even exist in mid-1940?

Sid

[Topspeed]

At that time the USSR was helping the Germans and did such PR Spitfires even exist in mid-1940?

Sid

Yes PR production started in 1938.Ended in 1941.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Topspeed,

"PR IV Spits."?

Cheers,

Sid.

[Topspeed]

Hi Topspeed,

"PR IV Spits."?

Cheers,

Sid.

IV is in the middle.