Joseph Goebbels’s rumoured Jewish ancestry and Javanese ancestry

Discussions on the propaganda, architecture and culture in the Third Reich.
George L Gregory
Member
Posts: 1048
Joined: 13 Nov 2020 15:08
Location: Britain

Joseph Goebbels’s rumoured Jewish ancestry and Javanese ancestry

Post by George L Gregory » 28 Feb 2022 19:34

Why was Joseph Goebbels rumoured to have had Jewish ancestry? Who started it?
In 1932 Goebbels saw fit to have certain allegations that his grandmother was Jewish refistedinapamphlet published in Berlin, Doktor Josef Goebbels-wer ist das? by Viator. In this pamphlet his grandmother’s maiden name is given the German spelling of Coerdes, and her Dutch origin is concealed. Her husband, Goebbels’ maternal grandfather Odenhausen, was a German who had emigrated to Holland.
Heinrich Fraenkel and Roger Manvell, Doctor Goebbels: His Life and Death, page 299.

Also, according to the historian Robert Payne, it was widely spread that Goebbels had Javanese ancestry from Indonesia.
Her ancestors had lived in Dutch Indonesia, and it was widely rumored that Goebbels had some Javanese blood.
Robert Payne, The Life and Death of Adolf Hitler, page 215.

Who started that rumour? I can’t find it mentioned in any other books.

User avatar
Ponury
Member
Posts: 336
Joined: 07 Jan 2006 20:38
Location: Gdansk/Danzig in Poland!

Re: Joseph Goebbels’s rumoured Jewish ancestry and Javanese ancestry

Post by Ponury » 16 Apr 2022 19:21

His rather Aryan surname was not :)

George L Gregory
Member
Posts: 1048
Joined: 13 Nov 2020 15:08
Location: Britain

Re: Joseph Goebbels’s rumoured Jewish ancestry and Javanese ancestry

Post by George L Gregory » 16 Apr 2022 19:44

Ponury wrote:
16 Apr 2022 19:21
His rather Aryan surname was not :)
Goebbels is a German surname.

User avatar
Ponury
Member
Posts: 336
Joined: 07 Jan 2006 20:38
Location: Gdansk/Danzig in Poland!

Re: Joseph Goebbels’s rumoured Jewish ancestry and Javanese ancestry

Post by Ponury » 16 Apr 2022 21:50

Okay, but I'm not 100% convinced.

George L Gregory
Member
Posts: 1048
Joined: 13 Nov 2020 15:08
Location: Britain

Re: Joseph Goebbels’s rumoured Jewish ancestry and Javanese ancestry

Post by George L Gregory » 16 Apr 2022 23:03

Ponury wrote:
16 Apr 2022 21:50
Okay, but I'm not 100% convinced.
It’s a German surname that is normally found in the western areas of Germany. It comes from the Low German word gobelet.

What evidence do you have that it is not of German origin?

DavidFrankenberg
Member
Posts: 1182
Joined: 11 May 2016 01:09
Location: Earth

Re: Joseph Goebbels’s rumoured Jewish ancestry and Javanese ancestry

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 28 Apr 2022 23:32

George L Gregory wrote:
16 Apr 2022 23:03
Ponury wrote:
16 Apr 2022 21:50
Okay, but I'm not 100% convinced.
It’s a German surname that is normally found in the western areas of Germany. It comes from the Low German word gobelet.

What evidence do you have that it is not of German origin?
Gobelet is a french word. Indeed a gaulish word. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gobelet

I never thought he had french ancestry, but now i am thinking about it :milsmile: Many french Huguenots fled to Germany during the French wars of religions (XVI-XVII centuries).
Maybe this french blood could also explain his attirance for the french language (which he spoke fluently) and french culture. :milwink:

George L Gregory
Member
Posts: 1048
Joined: 13 Nov 2020 15:08
Location: Britain

Re: Joseph Goebbels’s rumoured Jewish ancestry and Javanese ancestry

Post by George L Gregory » 29 Apr 2022 08:50

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
28 Apr 2022 23:32
George L Gregory wrote:
16 Apr 2022 23:03
Ponury wrote:
16 Apr 2022 21:50
Okay, but I'm not 100% convinced.
It’s a German surname that is normally found in the western areas of Germany. It comes from the Low German word gobelet.

What evidence do you have that it is not of German origin?
Gobelet is a french word. Indeed a gaulish word. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gobelet

I never thought he had french ancestry, but now i am thinking about it :milsmile: Many french Huguenots fled to Germany during the French wars of religions (XVI-XVII centuries).
Maybe this french blood could also explain his attirance for the french language (which he spoke fluently) and french culture. :milwink:
His surname was Goebbels. Gobelet has nothing to do with it.

On a side note, do you have any evidence that he was fluent in French? A source would be useful.

DavidFrankenberg
Member
Posts: 1182
Joined: 11 May 2016 01:09
Location: Earth

Re: Joseph Goebbels’s rumoured Jewish ancestry and Javanese ancestry

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 29 Apr 2022 11:30

George L Gregory wrote:
29 Apr 2022 08:50
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
28 Apr 2022 23:32
George L Gregory wrote:
16 Apr 2022 23:03
Ponury wrote:
16 Apr 2022 21:50
Okay, but I'm not 100% convinced.
It’s a German surname that is normally found in the western areas of Germany. It comes from the Low German word gobelet.

What evidence do you have that it is not of German origin?
Gobelet is a french word. Indeed a gaulish word. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gobelet

I never thought he had french ancestry, but now i am thinking about it :milsmile: Many french Huguenots fled to Germany during the French wars of religions (XVI-XVII centuries).
Maybe this french blood could also explain his attirance for the french language (which he spoke fluently) and french culture. :milwink:
His surname was Goebbels. Gobelet has nothing to do with it.
You said that it came from the word "gobelet". But gobelet is a gaulish/french word. Goebbels is from a region of french influence (Ruhr/Rhénanie).
On a side note, do you have any evidence that he was fluent in French? A source would be useful.
Im afraid i cant source for now. It is common knowledge. He was fond of french culture and spoke french fluently. He uses a lot of french word/expression in his famous diary. Many big fascist spoke french : Mussolini, Ciano, Ribbentrop, Goebbels were fluent in french. More could speak french than english. Even Göring could babble some french. Even Hitler who spent some years on french front during WWI should have known some basic french words.
Goebbels had 1 doctorate. He was a brilliant student and a big brain.

George L Gregory
Member
Posts: 1048
Joined: 13 Nov 2020 15:08
Location: Britain

Re: Joseph Goebbels’s rumoured Jewish ancestry and Javanese ancestry

Post by George L Gregory » 29 Apr 2022 22:52

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
29 Apr 2022 11:30
You said that it came from the word "gobelet". But gobelet is a gaulish/french word. Goebbels is from a region of french influence (Ruhr/Rhénanie).
From the Low German word ‘gobelet’ which has nothing to do with any French word.

I’ll presume that you don’t understand German.
Im afraid i cant source for now. It is common knowledge. He was fond of french culture and spoke french fluently. He uses a lot of french word/expression in his famous diary. Many big fascist spoke french : Mussolini, Ciano, Ribbentrop, Goebbels were fluent in french. More could speak french than english. Even Göring could babble some french. Even Hitler who spent some years on french front during WWI should have known some basic french words.
Goebbels had 1 doctorate. He was a brilliant student and a big brain.
Well clearly it’s not “common knowledge” because none of the major biographers of Joseph Goebbels have ever written that he was actually fluent in French.

I have his diaries in both English and German so please feel free to quote any French words and expressions he used.

The fact that you can’t even provide a source speaks volumes!

DavidFrankenberg
Member
Posts: 1182
Joined: 11 May 2016 01:09
Location: Earth

Re: Joseph Goebbels’s rumoured Jewish ancestry and Javanese ancestry

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 29 Apr 2022 23:06

George L Gregory wrote:
29 Apr 2022 22:52
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
29 Apr 2022 11:30
You said that it came from the word "gobelet". But gobelet is a gaulish/french word. Goebbels is from a region of french influence (Ruhr/Rhénanie).
From the Low German word ‘gobelet’ which has nothing to do with any French word.

I’ll presume that you don’t understand German.
I have quoted you one source stating that the word "gobelet" is from gaulish origin.
Im afraid i cant source for now. It is common knowledge. He was fond of french culture and spoke french fluently. He uses a lot of french word/expression in his famous diary. Many big fascist spoke french : Mussolini, Ciano, Ribbentrop, Goebbels were fluent in french. More could speak french than english. Even Göring could babble some french. Even Hitler who spent some years on french front during WWI should have known some basic french words.
Goebbels had 1 doctorate. He was a brilliant student and a big brain.
Well clearly it’s not “common knowledge” because none of the major biographers of Joseph Goebbels have ever written that he was actually fluent in French.

I have his diaries in both English and German so please feel free to quote any French words and expressions he used.

The fact that you can’t even provide a source speaks volumes!
I feel sorry to have hurt you. I'll try to quote you some. I am very surprised that you did not notice a single one... Many german sources of the time use french expressions. That's not so exceptional.

George L Gregory
Member
Posts: 1048
Joined: 13 Nov 2020 15:08
Location: Britain

Re: Joseph Goebbels’s rumoured Jewish ancestry and Javanese ancestry

Post by George L Gregory » 29 Apr 2022 23:11

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
29 Apr 2022 11:30
George L Gregory wrote:
29 Apr 2022 08:50
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
28 Apr 2022 23:32
George L Gregory wrote:
16 Apr 2022 23:03
Ponury wrote:
16 Apr 2022 21:50
Okay, but I'm not 100% convinced.
It’s a German surname that is normally found in the western areas of Germany. It comes from the Low German word gobelet.

What evidence do you have that it is not of German origin?
Gobelet is a french word. Indeed a gaulish word. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gobelet

I never thought he had french ancestry, but now i am thinking about it :milsmile: Many french Huguenots fled to Germany during the French wars of religions (XVI-XVII centuries).
Maybe this french blood could also explain his attirance for the french language (which he spoke fluently) and french culture. :milwink:
His surname was Goebbels. Gobelet has nothing to do with it.
You said that it came from the word "gobelet". But gobelet is a gaulish/french word. Goebbels is from a region of french influence (Ruhr/Rhénanie).
‘Goebbels’ is likely from the Low German word ‘gobelet’. That doesn’t mean that the surname Goebbels is not of German origin.

Plenty of English words are of different origins, so what?

The point is that there’s no evidence Goebbels was of French origin.
Im afraid i cant source for now. It is common knowledge. He was fond of french culture and spoke french fluently. He uses a lot of french word/expression in his famous diary. Many big fascist spoke french : Mussolini, Ciano, Ribbentrop, Goebbels were fluent in french. More could speak french than english. Even Göring could babble some french. Even Hitler who spent some years on french front during WWI should have known some basic french words.
Goebbels had 1 doctorate. He was a brilliant student and a big brain.
If it were such “common knowledge” that he was fluent in French then the biographers of Goebbels would have mentioned it but I don’t recall reading that at all.

Why can’t you provide a source? In English or German will be fine.

DavidFrankenberg
Member
Posts: 1182
Joined: 11 May 2016 01:09
Location: Earth

Re: Joseph Goebbels’s rumoured Jewish ancestry and Javanese ancestry

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 30 Apr 2022 00:16

George L Gregory wrote:
29 Apr 2022 23:11
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
29 Apr 2022 11:30
George L Gregory wrote:
29 Apr 2022 08:50
DavidFrankenberg wrote:
28 Apr 2022 23:32
George L Gregory wrote:
16 Apr 2022 23:03


It’s a German surname that is normally found in the western areas of Germany. It comes from the Low German word gobelet.

What evidence do you have that it is not of German origin?
Gobelet is a french word. Indeed a gaulish word. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gobelet

I never thought he had french ancestry, but now i am thinking about it :milsmile: Many french Huguenots fled to Germany during the French wars of religions (XVI-XVII centuries).
Maybe this french blood could also explain his attirance for the french language (which he spoke fluently) and french culture. :milwink:
His surname was Goebbels. Gobelet has nothing to do with it.
You said that it came from the word "gobelet". But gobelet is a gaulish/french word. Goebbels is from a region of french influence (Ruhr/Rhénanie).

‘Goebbels’ is likely from the Low German word ‘gobelet’. That doesn’t mean that the surname Goebbels is not of German origin.

Plenty of English words are of different origins, so what?

The point is that there’s no evidence Goebbels was of French origin.

We need to check his family tree.
Im afraid i cant source for now. It is common knowledge. He was fond of french culture and spoke french fluently. He uses a lot of french word/expression in his famous diary. Many big fascist spoke french : Mussolini, Ciano, Ribbentrop, Goebbels were fluent in french. More could speak french than english. Even Göring could babble some french. Even Hitler who spent some years on french front during WWI should have known some basic french words.
Goebbels had 1 doctorate. He was a brilliant student and a big brain.
If it were such “common knowledge” that he was fluent in French then the biographers of Goebbels would have mentioned it but I don’t recall reading that at all.

Why can’t you provide a source? In English or German will be fine.
I dont know what precise biographies you are talking about, but one book cant say it all about a man.
Indeed, Quentin Tarantino in his movie Inglorious Bastards invented a female character being the french interpreter of Dr Goebbels. With an italian name : Francesca Mondino. That's funny. https://quentin-tarantino.fandom.com/wi ... ca_Mondino

George L Gregory
Member
Posts: 1048
Joined: 13 Nov 2020 15:08
Location: Britain

Re: Joseph Goebbels’s rumoured Jewish ancestry and Javanese ancestry

Post by George L Gregory » 30 Apr 2022 08:44

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
30 Apr 2022 00:16
We need to check his family tree.
Goebbels was of Dutch and German ancestry.
I dont know what precise biographies you are talking about, but one book cant say it all about a man.
What is your native language? Something that is “common knowledge” would be mentioned in any major biography.

Peter Longerich, Helmut Heiber, Rolf Georg Reuth, Toby Thacker and Roger Manwell make no mention that Goebbels was fluent in French.

Therefore, unless you can provide a reliable source your claim can be dismissed. Do you have a source?
Indeed, Quentin Tarantino in his movie Inglorious Bastards invented a female character being the french interpreter of Dr Goebbels. With an italian name : Francesca Mondino. That's funny. https://quentin-tarantino.fandom.com/wi ... ca_Mondino
Whilst you may find it funny, it is totally irrelevant.

Return to “Propaganda, Culture & Architecture”