Estonians, Finns and Hungarians in Nazi propaganda

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George L Gregory
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Estonians, Finns and Hungarians in Nazi propaganda

Post by George L Gregory » 12 Mar 2021 22:28

How were the peoples of the Uralic languages, namely the Estonians, Finns and Hungarians depicted in Nazi propaganda?

Plenty of Estonians, Finns and Hungarians were/are Nordic in appearance.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Estonians, Finns and Hungarians in Nazi propaganda

Post by Sid Guttridge » 13 Mar 2021 08:44

Hi GLG,

The "Nordic" looking ones would have been regarded as recoverable racial stock, I guess, like hundreds of thousands of Poles.

However, I don't know about the rest.

I guess that Nazis weren't about to be drawn on this underlying racial issue when all could be used as allies against Slavdom, so I would suspect that propaganda coverage was positive. It certainly was in the colour propaganda magazine Signal, which had Finnish, Hungarian and, reportedly in 1945, Estonian editions:

https://www.warcolorphotos.com/122-finnish-soldiers (Finnish troops)

https://www.warcolorphotos.com/148-finnish-elite-troops (elite Finnish troops)

https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/320248223493875306/ (Admiral Horthy of Hungary on cover)

https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/320248223493874832/ (Hungarian General on cover)

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... 16868).jpg (Estonian W-SS volunteer with his dog - colourised B&W Signal photo)

Cheers,

Sid.

George L Gregory
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Re: Estonians, Finns and Hungarians in Nazi propaganda

Post by George L Gregory » 14 Mar 2021 23:23

"The Aryans (also Indo-Germans, Japhetiten) are one of the three branches of the Caucasian (white race);they are divided into the western (European), that is the German, Roman, Greek, Slav, Lett, Celt [and] Albanesen, and the eastern (Asiatic) Aryans, that is the Indian (Hindu) and Iranian (Persian, Afghan, Armenian, Georgian, Kurd). Non-Aryans are therefore: 1. the members of two other races, namely the Mongolian (yellow) and the Negroid (black) races; 2. the members of the two other branches of the Caucasian race, namely the Semites (Jews, Arabs) and Hamites (Berbers). The Finns and the Hungarians belong to the Mongoloid race; but it is hardly the intention of the law to treat them as non-Aryans. Thus . . . the non-Jewish members of the European Volk are Aryans..."

This definition of Aryan was clearly unacceptable. Not only did it include large numbers of non-European peoples such as Kurds and Afghans, but it also made the racial laws seem to be based on political expedience rather than science. Gercke replied that he would use the definition of Aryan established by the Expert Advisor for Population and Racial Policy (Sachverstandigenbeirats fur Bevolkerungs-und Rassenpolitik). “An Aryan is one who is tribally related (stammverivandte) to German blood. An Aryan is the descendant of a Volk domiciled in Europe in a closed tribal settlement (Volkstumssiedlung) since recorded history.” This definition managed to include Finns and Hungarians, and exclude Kurds and Afghans. Why this definition was more scientifically accurate, however, Gercke did not say.

The lack of uniformity of terms that were used to define racial acceptability also reflected the imprecision of the concept. Thus, while the Civil Service Law sought to differentiate between “Aryans” and “non-Aryans,” the Entailed Farm Law (Erbhofgesetz), also from 1933, discriminated between those with and without “German or tribally similar [stammesgleich] blood.” While early court decisions indicated that the two concepts had the same meaning, the meaning itself was not made explicit. In 1935, the Nuremberg Laws established a new term for racially acceptable origin: German or related blood. This remained the standard wording in legal documents until the end ofWorld War II. Nevertheless, even experts continued to use the term Aryan well after 1935.

In any event, changing Aryan to German or related blood did nothing to clarify who was racially acceptable and who was not. The “racial status” of Finns, Hungarians, and other Eastern Europeans, for example, was in constant flux during the Nazi era. In October 1934, while evaluating the naturalization of a Hungarian citizen, the Interior Ministry informed the Saxon State Chancellery in Dresden that not all Hungarians were “non-Aryans.” According to the Interior Ministry, Hungarians are “tribally alien” (fremdstammig) but not necessarily “blood alien” (fremdbliitig)—two additional terms adding to the definitional confusion.

On the other hand, a 1934 brochure from the series Family, Race, Volk in the National Socialist State simply stated that the Magyars (which it did not define) were Aryans. 40 Four years later, a major commentary to the Nuremberg Laws likewise baldly stated that “the overwhelming majority” of present day Finns and Hungarians were of Aryan blood. 41 Yet the following year an article in the Journal for Racial Science, on the “Racial Diagnosis of the Hungarians,” noted that “opinions on [t]he racial condition of the Hungarians are still very divided.”

In 1942, Hitler decreed that the Finns, at least, were definitely “racially related Germanic neighboring peoples.” 43 There is no indication, however, that this determination was based on new racial-scientific findings. And as late as 1943, no less than four agencies became involved in a dispute over whether a private first-class should receive permission to marry a Hungarian woman. They debated whether the woman was, as initially determined, “German-blooded (Aryan).”

Such arbitrariness and imprecision in classification could also be construed as an indication of the “unscientific” nature of the theory undergirding the racial laws. Nazi “racial experts,” however, sought to address this problem. A standard explanation was that: “[o]ne cannot pose the question to which race this or that Volk belongs but rather, one can only correctly ask to which race this or that individual member of a Volk belongs.” Thus, as early as October 1934, in relation to the case of the Hungarian citizen, the Interior Ministry informed the Saxon State Chancellery that racial decisions, for Hungarians at least, needed to be made on an individual basis. 46 Similarly, a November 1940 decree of the office of Hitler's deputy for party affairs held that no party member, or member of a party organization, could marry a person who had at least two grandparents who were members of the Czech, Polish, or Magyar “ Volk groups” without permission of the regional party official (Gauleiter).
Eric Ehrenreich, The Nazi Ancestral Proof Genealogy, Racial Science, And The Final Solution".

Ecam
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Re: Estonians, Finns and Hungarians in Nazi propaganda

Post by Ecam » 15 Mar 2021 04:22

Bravo! How many questions have you now asked that you promptly answer for yourself?

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Re: Estonians, Finns and Hungarians in Nazi propaganda

Post by Topspeed » 15 Mar 2021 07:14

George L Gregory wrote:
12 Mar 2021 22:28
How were the peoples of the Uralic languages, namely the Estonians, Finns and Hungarians depicted in Nazi propaganda?

Plenty of Estonians, Finns and Hungarians were/are Nordic in appearance.
First of all hungarian has nothing to do with finnish language....and Finland is a nordic country albeit language is not same as sweden, norway and denmark ( though swedish is official language too ). Hungarian OTOH has same intonation...it sounds like finnish from distance.

Finnish icehockey team coach Jukka Jalonen is a direct decentand of a 13th century latvian king. Latvians have 50% of the same genes as finns. St Petersburg was built to cut the finnish tribes connections to each others by land. The very name River Neva is finnish too.

Name Uralic also not right..it is finno-ugric...and finns are loosely related to western russian tribes...at least the ones in Karelia. Finns are not from Ural. Finns are able to understand language from Karelia, estonia is almost same too, but not understandable..more like english and german difference.

Futhermore Finland does have a long history to live under swedish and russian rule. Yet whole north Sweden is originally finnish as is north-western Russia...albeit Stalin did get almost all original inhabitants executed during his regime.

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Re: Estonians, Finns and Hungarians in Nazi propaganda

Post by henryk » 15 Mar 2021 21:06

Topspeed wrote:
15 Mar 2021 07:14
First of all hungarian has nothing to do with finnish language....and Finland is a nordic country albeit language is not same as sweden, norway and denmark ( though swedish is official language too ). Hungarian OTOH has same intonation...it sounds like finnish from distance.
It is commonly accepted Finnish and Hungarian are related laguages.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Uralic ... mily[quote]
[/The two major branches of Uralic are themselves composed of numerous subgroupings of member languages on the basis of closeness of linguistic relationship. Finno-Ugric can first be divided into the most distantly related Ugric and Finnic (sometimes called Volga-Finnic) groups, which may have separated as long ago as five millennia. Within these, three relatively closely related groups of languages are found: the Baltic-Finnic, the Permic, and the Ob-Ugric. The largest of these, the Baltic-Finnic group, is composed of Finnish, Estonian, Livonian, Votic, Ingrian, Karelian, and Veps. The Permic group consists of Komi, Permyak, and Udmurt. The Ob-Ugric group includes Mansi and Khanty.
......................................................................
The Ugric group comprises the geographically most distant members of the family—the Hungarian and Ob-Ugric languages. Finnic contains the remaining languages: the Baltic-Finnic languages, the Sami (or Lapp) languages, Mordvin, Mari, and the Permic tongues. There is little accord on the further subclassification of the Finnic languages, although the fairly close relationship between Baltic-Finnic and Sami is generally recognized (and is called North Finnic); the degree of separation between the two may be compared to that between English and German. Mordvin has most frequently been linked with Mari (a putative Volga language group), but comparative evidence also suggests a bond with Baltic-Finnic and Sami (that is, West Finnic). The extinct Merya, Murom, and Meshcher tongues, known only from Old Russian chronicles, are assumed to have been spoken by Finnic peoples and, from their geographic location northwest of Mordvin, must have belonged to West Finnic.
quote]

Hungarians are majority Slavic origin, due to intermarriage with the original Slaves on the region.
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=70614&hilit=genetic+distance
See figure, post 1. This shows that Poland and Hungary are the closest countries genetically related.
The Hungarian Parliament has the Polish Piast Eagle at the front of the chamber.

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Re: Estonians, Finns and Hungarians in Nazi propaganda

Post by Sid Guttridge » 15 Mar 2021 21:30

Hi Henryk,

You post, "See figure, post 1. This shows that Poland and Hungary are the closest countries genetically related."

It doesn't because it doesn't include the nearest Slavic peoples, such as Slovaks, Belarusians or Ukrainians.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Estonians, Finns and Hungarians in Nazi propaganda

Post by Topspeed » 16 Mar 2021 09:16

henryk wrote:
15 Mar 2021 21:06
Topspeed wrote:
15 Mar 2021 07:14
First of all hungarian has nothing to do with finnish language....and Finland is a nordic country albeit language is not same as sweden, norway and denmark ( though swedish is official language too ). Hungarian OTOH has same intonation...it sounds like finnish from distance.
It is commonly accepted Finnish and Hungarian are related laguages.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Uralic ... mily[quote]
[/The two major branches of Uralic are themselves composed of numerous subgroupings of member languages on the basis of closeness of linguistic relationship. Finno-Ugric can first be divided into the most distantly related Ugric and Finnic (sometimes called Volga-Finnic) groups, which may have separated as long ago as five millennia. Within these, three relatively closely related groups of languages are found: the Baltic-Finnic, the Permic, and the Ob-Ugric. The largest of these, the Baltic-Finnic group, is composed of Finnish, Estonian, Livonian, Votic, Ingrian, Karelian, and Veps. The Permic group consists of Komi, Permyak, and Udmurt. The Ob-Ugric group includes Mansi and Khanty.
......................................................................
The Ugric group comprises the geographically most distant members of the family—the Hungarian and Ob-Ugric languages. Finnic contains the remaining languages: the Baltic-Finnic languages, the Sami (or Lapp) languages, Mordvin, Mari, and the Permic tongues. There is little accord on the further subclassification of the Finnic languages, although the fairly close relationship between Baltic-Finnic and Sami is generally recognized (and is called North Finnic); the degree of separation between the two may be compared to that between English and German. Mordvin has most frequently been linked with Mari (a putative Volga language group), but comparative evidence also suggests a bond with Baltic-Finnic and Sami (that is, West Finnic). The extinct Merya, Murom, and Meshcher tongues, known only from Old Russian chronicles, are assumed to have been spoken by Finnic peoples and, from their geographic location northwest of Mordvin, must have belonged to West Finnic.
quote]

Hungarians are majority Slavic origin, due to intermarriage with the original Slaves on the region.
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=70614&hilit=genetic+distance
See figure, post 1. This shows that Poland and Hungary are the closest countries genetically related.
The Hungarian Parliament has the Polish Piast Eagle at the front of the chamber.

Yes livonian and veps have practically gone extinct. What ever the relation between hungarians and finns was it must have been really long time ago as there are no common words...as in estonian almost all words are the same but have a different meaning in many cases.

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Re: Estonians, Finns and Hungarians in Nazi propaganda

Post by Sid Guttridge » 16 Mar 2021 12:36

Hi Topspeed,

You post, "What ever the relation between hungarians and finns was it must have been really long time ago". Yes, it was, but it doesn't stop them being from the same language group. Their languages are at root more closely related to each other than they are to any of the Indo-European language groups.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Estonians, Finns and Hungarians in Nazi propaganda

Post by Topspeed » 16 Mar 2021 13:37

Sid Guttridge wrote:
16 Mar 2021 12:36
Hi Topspeed,

You post, "What ever the relation between hungarians and finns was it must have been really long time ago". Yes, it was, but it doesn't stop them being from the same language group. Their languages are at root more closely related to each other than they are to any of the Indo-European language groups.

Cheers,

Sid.

Yes that would explain why they are so far away from us. :wink:

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Re: Estonians, Finns and Hungarians in Nazi propaganda

Post by George L Gregory » 24 Aug 2021 07:29

Apart from the Ehrenreich quote, have there been any authors who have commented on the Nazis’ view on the people who speak the Uralic language i.e. not Indo-Europeans?

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Re: Estonians, Finns and Hungarians in Nazi propaganda

Post by Topspeed » 27 Aug 2021 08:10

George L Gregory wrote:
24 Aug 2021 07:29
Apart from the Ehrenreich quote, have there been any authors who have commented on the Nazis’ view on the people who speak the Uralic language i.e. not Indo-Europeans?

What are these "Uralic" languages you insist ?

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Re: Estonians, Finns and Hungarians in Nazi propaganda

Post by Sid Guttridge » 27 Aug 2021 08:17

Hi Topspeed,

The following link includes a map of their distribution: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Uralic_languages

Cheers,

Sid

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Re: Estonians, Finns and Hungarians in Nazi propaganda

Post by henryk » 27 Aug 2021 20:23

Sid Guttridge wrote:
27 Aug 2021 08:17
Hi Topspeed,

The following link includes a map of their distribution: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Uralic_languages

Cheers,

Sid
Compare the map in the above reference to this one:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland#/ ... in_814.jpg
It shows a considerable area of the Finno-Uralics, after 2000 years after the start of the Indo-European migrations.
Before the start, the Finno-Uralics and the Basques shared Europe.
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Re: Estonians, Finns and Hungarians in Nazi propaganda

Post by George L Gregory » 28 Aug 2021 16:46

Topspeed wrote:
27 Aug 2021 08:10
George L Gregory wrote:
24 Aug 2021 07:29
Apart from the Ehrenreich quote, have there been any authors who have commented on the Nazis’ view on the people who speak the Uralic language i.e. not Indo-Europeans?

What are these "Uralic" languages you insist ?
Finnish, Estonian and Hungarian.

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