Soviet invasion plan to Finland in 1941 !

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Soviet invasion plan to Finland in 1941 !

Post by Topspeed » 03 Sep 2021 09:48

Supposed to done with 49 divisions...450 000 men.
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Re: Soviet invasion plan to Finland in 1941 !

Post by Topspeed » 03 Sep 2021 09:53

Curioysly the summer offensive in 1944 was done with exact same strenght.

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Re: Soviet invasion plan to Finland in 1941 !

Post by Topspeed » 03 Sep 2021 09:53

Finland was no axis power at that time....and a major player already then.

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Re: Soviet invasion plan to Finland in 1941 !

Post by Art » 04 Sep 2021 07:30

That was one of optional war plans developed in the second half of 1940:
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=171252&p=1559394
By the next year its traces were already lost.
Supposed to done with 49 divisions...450 000 men.
50 division was well more than a 1 million men, if support units are included.

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Re: Soviet invasion plan to Finland in 1941 !

Post by Topspeed » 04 Sep 2021 10:22

Art wrote:
04 Sep 2021 07:30
That was one of optional war plans developed in the second half of 1940:
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=171252&p=1559394
By the next year its traces were already lost.
Supposed to done with 49 divisions...450 000 men.
50 division was well more than a 1 million men, if support units are included.
Traces were lost ?

Here it is.

Why was it not implemented ?

Did they miss the start because of Barbarossa ?

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Re: Soviet invasion plan to Finland in 1941 !

Post by Art » 05 Sep 2021 07:55

Topspeed wrote:
04 Sep 2021 10:22
Traces were lost ?
Again, that's the plan developed among several others in September 1940. Namely, a large two-front plan (operations against Germany&allies in Europe and against Japan in the Far East) and three small plans (separate operations against Finland, Romania and Turkey). Was this particular plan continued in 1941 is not clear.
Why was it not implemented ?
Because they didn't intend to.

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Re: Soviet invasion plan to Finland in 1941 !

Post by AriX » 05 Sep 2021 12:44

Directive of the NKO of the USSR and the General Staff of the Red Army to the Commander of the Leningrad Military District, 25/11/1940
In the conditions of the war of the USSR only against Finland two fronts are created for the convenience of command and material support of the troops:

The Northern Front - to act on the coast of the Barents Sea and in the directions of Rovaniemi, Kemi and Uleaborg;

The North-Western Front for action in the directions of Kuopio, Mikheenli and Helsingfors. Command of the North-Western Front is assigned to the Command and Staff of the Leningrad Military District.

I order to proceed with the development of a plan for the operational deployment of the troops of the North-Western Front, guided by the following instructions:

I. Taking into account the composition and dislocation of the Finnish army at the present time and also Finland's preparations for the war, the deployment plan for our troops is to be constructed on the basis of the following assumptions:
1. In the event of war in the next few years, Finland would be able to field 16-18 infantry divisions, using all of them against the USSR.
2. These divisions will presumably be deployed:
In the area of Petsamo, up to one infantry division.
In the area of Kemijärvi and Kuusamo to cover the direction to Kemi up to two infantry divisions.
On the Uleåborg direction up to two infantry divisions.
On the Kuopio, Savonminna and Nurmes directions up to five infantry divisions.
Up to six infantry divisions on the directions of Savonminna, Lappeenranta, the Gulf of Finland and Lahti.
One or two infantry divisions in the Helsingfors and Abo area.

The final deployment of all the divisions is expected on the 15th-20th day of mobilization.

4. The possibility is not excluded of reinforcing the Finnish Armed Forces with the troops of her possible allies (Sweden, Norway and Germany).

5. Given the general probable plan of defensive actions of the Finnish army, its possible participation in the first days of the war with the aim of endangering Leningrad by reaching Lake Ladoga and capturing Viborg is not excluded.

II. My main tasks for the North-Western Front are: The defeat of the Finnish armed forces, the seizure of its territory within the delimitation limits and the exit to the Gulf of Bothnia on the 45th day of the operation, for which purpose:

1. During the concentration of forces firmly cover the Vyborg and Kexholm directions, in all circumstances keep Vyborg behind itself and do not allow the enemy to reach the Ladoga Lake.
2. To be ready on the 35th day of mobilization to launch a general assault by special order to deliver the main blow in the general direction of Lappeenranta, Heinola and Hämeenlinna and auxiliary blows in the directions of Korniselkä, Kuopio and Savonminna, Mikkeli, defeat the main forces of the Finnish army near Mikkeli, Heinola and Hamina, on the 25th day of the operation take Helsingfors and reach the front Kuopio, Jyväskylä, Hämeenlinna, Helsingfors.

III. On the right the Northern Front (HQ Kandalaksha) on the 40th day of mobilization takes the offensive and on the 30th day of the operation takes the area of Kemi, Uleåborg.
Its left flank 20th division infantry corps takes off in the direction of Suomusalmi, Puolanka and on the day of the operation takes the area of Puolankaue, Stakor-Uhta.
The border with it: Maselskaya station, Pielisjärvi, Insalmi, Pyhäjärvi. All for the North-West front exclusively.

IV. In order to carry out the above tasks, the troops of the North-Western Front to include:
four directorates of field armies;
nine directorates of rifle corps;
one directorate of the mechanized corps;
twenty-nine infantry divisions;
two tank divisions;
one motorized infantry division;
five tank brigades;
four motorized brigades;
twelve RGK artillery regiments;
six pontoon battalions;
seven engineer battalions;
fifty-five air regiments.

To have three infantry divisions in the region of Tikhvin: Volkhovstroy, Chudovo in the reserve of the General Command.

The said troops of the North-Western Front are to be deployed.

The headquarters of the front is Leningrad.

7th Army as part of:

two rifle corps administrations;
six rifle divisions;
one ski brigade;
two pontoon battalions;
one tank brigade;
a network of air regiments;
two artillery regiments of the RGK;
two engineer battalions.

Army HQ - Suoyarvi.

By striking the main blow with the force of no less than four infantry divisions in the direction of Korniselkä, Kuopio, break the opposing Finnish army units and seize: on the 15th day of the operation - the Joensu area; on the 30th day of the operation - the Kuopio area, engulfing the main enemy grouping from the north.

In the future, take into account the attack on Jyväskylä.

The border on the left: Kuokkantsemi station, Savonranta, Art. Virtasalmi, Art. Leivonmäki.

The 22nd Army (from the URVO), consisting of:
one Rifle Corps Department;
five rifle divisions;
one tank brigade;
one motorized brigade;
three artillery regiments of the RGK;
one pontoon battalion;
two engineer battalions;
seven aviation regiments.
The army's headquarters was Kexholm.

During the period of cover, firmly covering the state border, not to allow the enemy to reach Lake Ladoga.

After the concentration the main strike by the four infantry divisions in the direction of Virmuntjoki and Juva to surround and destroy the enemy and on the 15th day of the operation to reach the Savonranta, Juva and Kampila fronts.

Later on, depending on the circumstances, to act either together with the 23rd Army at Heinoll or in cooperation with the 7th Army at Jyväskylä and further on at Taltere. On the 30th day of the operation reach the front: Kanggamiemi, Leivonmäki, Lake Iloma, Kalkkinen.

Left border: Vuoksela, Antrea, Imatra, Isk. Ristiina, Iskkinen. Kalkkinen.

The 23rd Army (detached from the LVO directorate) consisting of:
two directorates of rifle corps;
six rifle divisions;
two tank brigades;
one motorized brigade;
six artillery regiments of the RGK;
two artillery divisions of the RGKs;
two pontoon battalions;
three engineer battalions;
eleven air regiments.
The army's headquarters was Carisalmi.

Attacking in the direction of Lappeenranta, Lahti, Riihimäki, destroy the opposing enemy and on the 15th day of the operation reach the front of Savitaipela, Valkolaimäki, Taavetti station.

In the future, bypassing the best developed fortifications from the north in cooperation with the 20th Army, destroy the enemy on the Helsinki direction and on the 30th day of the operation move to the front of Kalkkinen, Kärkelä and Mänsälä, having in mind to advance to the front of Savitaipela and Tavetti station to introduce the infantry corps into the opening.

The border on the left: Perkjärvi, Tali, Luumäki, Kouvola and Mänskälä. Mänsälä.

The 20th Army (from the ORVO), consisting of:
two rifle corps divisions;
six rifle divisions;
two tank brigades;
one motorized brigade;
five artillery regiments of the RGK;
two pontoon battalions;
two engineer battalions;
nine aviation regiments.

Army HQ - Vyborg.
Task: break the enemy fortified front, destroy its opposing units and seize: on the 15th day of the operation reach the front of Taavetti, Haliena, on the 30th day of the operation - Mäntsälä, Parvar. Later on, in conjunction with the 23rd Army and the 1st Brigade on the 35th day of the operation, reach the area of Helsingfors.

In addition to the above forces, the command of the North-Western Front has at its disposal:

1) On the northwestern coast of the Estonian SSR in the area of Tallinn, the Baltic Port, one directorate skunk (65th skunk), two infantry divisions (11 and 126th sept. from the VDR), one of which is to be transported to the Hanko Peninsula (Hange) to act on Helsingfors and the second, either to transport also to the Hanko Peninsula or to land the landing on the Åland Islands, and one detached rifle brigade.
2) The Front's reserve corps: three rifle divisions in the vicinity of Petijärvi, Heinjoki, and Valk-Järvi; one rifle division in the vicinity of Leningrad.
3) Mechanized Corps in the area of Vyborg, Heinjoki, Antrea.
4) Second Air Defense Corps (Leningrad);
5) twenty-one air regiments;
6) one airborne brigade.

V. Army and front air forces to assign the following tasks:

1. To assist ground troops by operating against enemy ground troops in their combat orders and large groupings.
2. Destroy enemy aviation.
3. Prohibit military transports on land and at sea.
4. In conjunction with naval aviation and the Navy, destroy the enemy naval fleet.
5. Together with the navy disrupt the naval supply to Finland through the Gulf of Bothnia and from the Baltic Sea.
6. To cover the transfer and landing of the troops on Hanko peninsula with the involvement for this purpose of the aviation of the Baltic Military District.

VI. The Red Banner Baltic Fleet, subordinated operationally to the Military Council of the North-Western Front, is assigned the following tasks:

1. In conjunction with the aviation to destroy the battle fleets of Finland and Sweden (in the event of the latter's intervention).
2. Assist the land forces operating on the coast of the Gulf of Finland and from the Hanko peninsula by providing their flanks and destroying the Finnish coastal defenses.
3. Ensure the transfer of two infantry divisions during the first days of the war from the north coast of the Estonian SSR to Hanko peninsula and also the transfer and landing of a large landing on the Aland Islands.
4. By the cruising operations of submarines and aircraft to interrupt the naval communications of Finland and Sweden (in the event of its intervention against the USSR) in the Gulf of Bothnia and the Baltic Sea.

VII. Cover mobilization, concentration and deployment to be developed along the entire border with Finland within the LBO, ensuring the following tasks:

1. To cover the mobilization, concentration and deployment of our troops from the enemy by land and air, preventing the enemy from entering our territory and overflying the state border by his aircraft.
2. Not to allow the enemy to raid Leningrad and other industrial centers.
3. Not to allow the enemy to break through to Lake Ladoga and to retain Vyborg.
4. Not to allow the disturbance of the railroads on the front territory.
5. To determine the concentration, deployment, strength and grouping of the enemy troops by air and ground reconnaissance.

The first crossing and flying of the state border is permitted only with the permission of the High Command.

VIII. General instructions:

1. This deployment plan is to be given the provisional designation "C.3-20.
The plan shall be put into effect upon receipt of an encrypted telegram for mine and the Chief of General Staff, K.A., signed as follows: "Proceed with the execution of "C.3-20".
2. The Military Council and the headquarters of the Leningrad Military District are to develop, by February 15, 1941, in the General Staff of the Red Army:

a) A plan for the concentration and deployment of the front's troops.
b) Plan of covering.
c) Plan for the first operation.
d) Plan of action of aviation.
e) Plan for the rear and material support, sanitary and veterinary evacuation for the first month of the war.
f) Plan for restoration and construction of railroads and dirt roads.
g) Plan for communications for the period of cover, concentration and deployment and for the period of the first operation.
h) Plan for engineering support.
i) Plan for air defense.

3. The development of the plan is authorized:

a) In full: the commander of troops, member of the Military Council, the chief of staff, and the chief of operations of the district.
b) With regard to the development of the Air Force Plan, the commander of the Air Force of the LMD.
c) In part of the development of the logistics plan - Deputy Head of the District for Logistics.
d) In part of the development of the military communications plan - Head of Military Communications of the LMD.

Plan documents are written only by hand or are typed on a typewriter personally by commanders who are admitted to the development of the plan. At the end of the development, all materials for the inventory are handed over to the Chief of the Operations Directorate of the General Staff.

APPENDICES:
1. Scheme of the deployment of the armies of the North-Western Front on the map 1.000.000 scale in one copy.

2. Graphic representation of the combat strength of the troops of the North-Western Front .

3. Graphic plan of the railroad transportations.



People's Commissar of Defense of the USSR

Marshal of the Soviet Union (S. Timoshenko)

Chief of the General Staff of the Red Army

General of the Army (K. Meretskov)

Executor: Head of the Operations Directorate of the General Staff of the Red Army

Lieutenant General N. Vatutin

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Re: Soviet invasion plan to Finland in 1941 !

Post by Ironmachine » 06 Sep 2021 07:45

This attack plan for the year 1941 is well explained in this small booklet (pages 70-83):
The Soviet Plans for the North Western Theatre of Operations in1939-1944 https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/39979677.pdf

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Re: Soviet invasion plan to Finland in 1941 !

Post by Art » 06 Sep 2021 08:38

Ironmachine wrote:
06 Sep 2021 07:45
This attack plan for the year 1941 is well explained in this small booklet (pages 70-83):
That's the same plan from autumn 1940.
To clarify things one more time: Soviet command developed several operational plans in the autumn of 1940 based on different scenarios. As far as the Finnish Front as concerned there were two scenarios:
1) Large war against the Germany-led coalition with generally defensive tasks.
2) Isolated war against Finland with offensive tasks.
In the year 1941 the Leningrad Military District received instruction to continue planning on scenario 1). If there were similar instruction concerning scenario 2) is unknown, at least they were not published. In any case, in June 1941 this plan would be simply irrelevant.

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Re: Soviet invasion plan to Finland in 1941 !

Post by Topspeed » 06 Sep 2021 11:09

Art wrote:
05 Sep 2021 07:55
Topspeed wrote:
04 Sep 2021 10:22
Traces were lost ?
Again, that's the plan developed among several others in September 1940. Namely, a large two-front plan (operations against Germany&allies in Europe and against Japan in the Far East) and three small plans (separate operations against Finland, Romania and Turkey). Was this particular plan continued in 1941 is not clear.
Why was it not implemented ?
Because they didn't intend to.
They very much intented it.

Reichskanzler Adolf Hitler said three times no to this attack.


https://jput.fi/Venajan_hyokkayssuunnitelma_suom.htm

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Re: Soviet invasion plan to Finland in 1941 !

Post by Topspeed » 06 Sep 2021 11:12

As the attacking force was ( would have been ) twice the size of the force German used in The Battle of Bulge...does this make it the biggest assault plan ever ?

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Re: Soviet invasion plan to Finland in 1941 !

Post by Topspeed » 06 Sep 2021 11:34

Coincidentally finns made a song called Njet Molotov: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pWcVxl9v6Y

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Re: Soviet invasion plan to Finland in 1941 !

Post by Art » 06 Sep 2021 14:05

Topspeed wrote:
06 Sep 2021 11:09
They very much intented it.
Every plan is made with intention to implement it under certain conditions. Yet, if these conditions are not met, there are no intentions either. In the summer of 1941 there were conditions and no intentions.
Reichskanzler Adolf Hitler said three times no to this attack.
He couldn't do it, because this question wasn't raised. What was raised was the question of presence of German troops in Finland and German policy in Finland in general, which was seen as contradicting Soviet interests. Molotov didn't say anything about "attack". "war" etc.

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Re: Soviet invasion plan to Finland in 1941 !

Post by Topspeed » 06 Sep 2021 14:32

Art wrote:
06 Sep 2021 14:05
Topspeed wrote:
06 Sep 2021 11:09
They very much intented it.
Every plan is made with intention to implement it under certain conditions. Yet, if these conditions are not met, there are no intentions either. In the summer of 1941 there were conditions and no intentions.
Reichskanzler Adolf Hitler said three times no to this attack.
He couldn't do it, because this question wasn't raised. What was raised was the question of presence of German troops in Finland and German policy in Finland in general, which was seen as contradicting Soviet interests. Molotov didn't say anything about "attack". "war" etc.

It is as if you didn't know about the Molotov-Ribbentrop treaty ?

Definitely USSR wanted to correct their "mistake" with another more concentrated attack.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLmFS_RPACc

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Re: Soviet invasion plan to Finland in 1941 !

Post by Art » 06 Sep 2021 16:18

Topspeed wrote:
06 Sep 2021 14:32
It is as if you didn't know about the Molotov-Ribbentrop treaty ?
Molotov knew. That was his point exactly: Germany promised that Finland would be a Soviet area of interest, but was messing with it instead. Hence his message: "get out from here". Again, the problem raised was not a war with Finland but German actions in Finland, which Molotov stated very clearly.

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