Romanian and Hungarian Aircraft breakdown June 1941

Discussions on all aspects of the smaller Axis nations in Europe and Asia. Hosted by G. Trifkovic.
Kelvin
Member
Posts: 3020
Joined: 06 Apr 2007 14:49

Romanian and Hungarian Aircraft breakdown June 1941

Post by Kelvin » 21 Apr 2021 14:16

Hello, every members, I know Romanian had 19 x fighter squadrons (1 x Hawker Hurricane, 4 x PZL 7, 2 x PZL 11, 3 x Heinkek -112, 3 x Me-109, 1 x Bloch-210, and 2 x Potez 63 and 3 x IAR-80), anyone have data on how many actual number of aircraft on the eve of Barbarossa ? Thank

And I knew Hungarian 's main fighters were FIAT CR-32 fighters and also with some Reggiane Re 2000 and FIAT CR 42, , anyone know the actual number of aircraft on the eve of start of Russo-German in June 1941 ? Thank

Kelvin
Member
Posts: 3020
Joined: 06 Apr 2007 14:49

Re: Romanian and Hungarian Aircraft breakdown June 1941

Post by Kelvin » 26 Apr 2021 11:09

Hello, I have found data on fighter strength of Royal Romanian Airforce but still lacks data on bomber, anyone have those ?
The types includes Savorie Marchetti SM 79, He-111, Potez 63, Bloch 210 and PZL p-37 los

And I see Leo Niehorster book on Royal Hungarian Army, he mentions Hungarian had 162 fighers ready for action in May 41, over half were FIAT CR-32, but I see Wiki mention she only had 69 x CR 32,

So exactly when war started in June 1941, how many CR-32, CR-42 she had ? And did she have Reggaine Re 2000 already ? Thank

And I see she had 7 x He-86k squardron in Balkan campaign but only three left in June 1941, Leo Niehorster book mentions she only had 56 combat ready bombers ? anyone knows breakdown ? Thank

CNE503
Member
Posts: 2395
Joined: 23 Aug 2010 12:01
Location: Dijon, Bourgogne, France

Re: Romanian and Hungarian Aircraft breakdown June 1941

Post by CNE503 » 26 Apr 2021 12:35

Bloch MB.210 and Potez 63 were not fighters but french-manufactured bombers.

Also, there were only two Heinkel He 112 squadrons (Escadrile 51 and 52 Vânătoare) in the 5th Fighter Wing (Grupul 5 Vânătoare), total 28.
The three squadrons of Bf 109 were Escadrile 56, 57 and 58 of Grupul 7 Vânătoare, total 36.
The three IAR 80 squadrons were Escadrile 41, 59 and 60 of Grupul 8 Vânătoare, total 24.
Six squadrons were equipped with PZL.P.11f (Escadrile 43, 44 and 45 of Grupul 3 Vânătoare, Escadrile 46, 49 and 50 of Grupul 4 Vânătoare), total 72.
Two others were equipped with PZL P.24E (Escadrile 61 and 62 of Grupul 6 Vânătoare), total 24.
Last but not least, there was the independent Escadrila 53 Vânătoare on Hawker "Hurricane" Mk.I, total 12.

Grand total: 196 fighters.
Only the Bf 109, He 112 and IAR 80 were used for offensive operations against USSR (total: 88), the P.11f and P.24E were dedicated to air defense of the realm only, as were the "Hurricane" fighters which protected the strategic port of Constanta.

I have the figures of serviceable aircrafts in DENES, KARLENKO and ROBA, From Barbarossa to Odessa: The Luftwaffe and Axis Allies Strike South-East June - October 1941, Vol. 1: The Air Battle for Bessarabia: 22 June-31 July 1941 (see here: https://www.amazon.com/Barbarossa-Odess ... oks&sr=1-1) but unfortunately I'm not at home right now. I could give these figures at the end of the week.

Regards,
CNE503
Last edited by CNE503 on 26 Apr 2021 17:32, edited 1 time in total.
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

Kelvin
Member
Posts: 3020
Joined: 06 Apr 2007 14:49

Re: Romanian and Hungarian Aircraft breakdown June 1941

Post by Kelvin » 26 Apr 2021 15:02

CNE503 wrote:
26 Apr 2021 12:35
Bloch MB.210 and Potez 63 were not fighters but french-manufactured bombers.

Also, there were only two Heinkel He 112 squadrons (Escadrile 51 and 52 Vânătoare) in the 5th Fighter Wing (Grupul 5 Vânătoare), total 28.
The three squadrons of Bf 109 were Escadrile 56, 57 and 58 of Grupul 7 Vânătoare, total 36.
The three IAR 80 squadrons were Escadrile 41, 59 and 60 of Grupul 8 Vânătoare, total 24.
Six squadrons were equipped with PZL.P.11f (Escadrile 43, 44 and 45 of Grupul 3 Vânătoare, Escadrile 46, 49 and 50 of Grupul 4 Vânătoare), total 72.
Two others were equipped with PZL P.24E (Escadrile 61 and 62 of Grupul 6 Vânătoare), total 24.
Last but not least, there was the independent Escadrila 53 Vânătoare on Hawker "Hurricane" Mk.I, total 12.

Grand total: 196 fighters.
Only the Bf 109, He 112 and IAR 80 were used for offensive operations against USSR (total: 88), the P.11f and P.24E were dedicated to air defense of the realm only, as was the "Hurricane" fighters which protected the strategic port of Constanta.

I have the figures of serviceable aircrafts in DENES, KARLENKO and ROBA, From Barbarossa to Odessa: The Luftwaffe and Axis Allies Strike South-East June - October 1941, Vol. 1: The Air Battle for Bessarabia: 22 June-31 July 1941 (see here: https://www.amazon.com/Barbarossa-Odess ... oks&sr=1-1) but unfortunately I'm not at home right now. I could give these figures at the end of the week.

Regards,
CNE503

Hello, CNE503, thank for your additional information.

Wait for your other information.

Peter89
Member
Posts: 1840
Joined: 28 Aug 2018 05:52
Location: Europe

Re: Romanian and Hungarian Aircraft breakdown June 1941

Post by Peter89 » 26 Apr 2021 21:04

Kelvin wrote:
21 Apr 2021 14:16
Hello, every members, I know Romanian had 19 x fighter squadrons (1 x Hawker Hurricane, 4 x PZL 7, 2 x PZL 11, 3 x Heinkek -112, 3 x Me-109, 1 x Bloch-210, and 2 x Potez 63 and 3 x IAR-80), anyone have data on how many actual number of aircraft on the eve of Barbarossa ? Thank

And I knew Hungarian 's main fighters were FIAT CR-32 fighters and also with some Reggiane Re 2000 and FIAT CR 42, , anyone know the actual number of aircraft on the eve of start of Russo-German in June 1941 ? Thank
http://www.epa.hu/00000/00018/00126/pdf ... 45-087.pdf

This paper pretty much sums it up from the Hungarian side.

Please do tell me if you need translations!
“And while I am talking to you, mothers and fathers, I give you one more assurance. I have said this before, but I shall say it again, and again and again. Your boys are not going to be sent into any foreign wars." - FDR, October 1940

Peter89
Member
Posts: 1840
Joined: 28 Aug 2018 05:52
Location: Europe

Re: Romanian and Hungarian Aircraft breakdown June 1941

Post by Peter89 » 27 Apr 2021 09:44

Kelvin wrote:
21 Apr 2021 14:16
Hello, every members, I know Romanian had 19 x fighter squadrons (1 x Hawker Hurricane, 4 x PZL 7, 2 x PZL 11, 3 x Heinkek -112, 3 x Me-109, 1 x Bloch-210, and 2 x Potez 63 and 3 x IAR-80), anyone have data on how many actual number of aircraft on the eve of Barbarossa ? Thank

And I knew Hungarian 's main fighters were FIAT CR-32 fighters and also with some Reggiane Re 2000 and FIAT CR 42, , anyone know the actual number of aircraft on the eve of start of Russo-German in June 1941 ? Thank
To be more exact:

The Magyar Királyi Légierő (Hungarian Royal Aif Force) had 30 squadrons in 1940/1941:
10 squadrons of Close Range Recce
2 squadrons of Long Range Recce
8 squadrons of Fighters
10 squadrons of Bombers
There was also a parachute battalion with at least 6 SM-75s.

With 326 front line aircraft, 118 training aircraft and 32 aerobatics aircraft, with a total of 476 (other sources claim 120 training aircrafts and thus a 478 total).

By 1941, the HRAF expanded quickly. Too quickly.

By the time of the Yugoslav invasion, the fighter forces were the 2nd and 6th Fighter Regiments, including 43 Messerschmitt Bf-109E-3, 18 Hurricane-I and more than 40 IK-2s and IK-3s. The bomber forces were the 1st, 3rd, 7th és 8th Bomber Regiments, with a little over 200 pieces, including Bristol Blenheims, Do-17Ks, Savoia-Marchetti (SM)- 79s and Breguet-19s .

In the Yugoslav invasion, the following units and types were used:
3/5. independent bomber squadron (Ca 135) from Hajdúböszörmény,
4/3. és 4/4. bomber squadrons (Ju 86) from Székesfehérvár,
1/1. és 1/2. fighter squadrons (CR 32) from Pécs,
1/3. és 1/4. fighter squadrons (CR 42) from Szeged,
2/3. és 2/4. fighter squadrons (CR 42) from Kecskemét.

By May 6, the forces whittled down because there was a huge protest against obsolete aircrafts.
School aircrafts 146
Training aircrafts: 27 (15 bomber and 12 fighter)
Towing: 5
Parachute transporter: 4
Long range recce: 13
Close range recce: 123
Bomber: 56
Fighter: 162
Altogether 363 front line aircrafts, plus 173 training aircrafts, SUM: 536.

The HRAF also possessed a few He-111s and He-70s.
“And while I am talking to you, mothers and fathers, I give you one more assurance. I have said this before, but I shall say it again, and again and again. Your boys are not going to be sent into any foreign wars." - FDR, October 1940

Kelvin
Member
Posts: 3020
Joined: 06 Apr 2007 14:49

Re: Romanian and Hungarian Aircraft breakdown June 1941

Post by Kelvin » 28 Apr 2021 13:20

Peter89 wrote:
27 Apr 2021 09:44
Kelvin wrote:
21 Apr 2021 14:16
Hello, every members, I know Romanian had 19 x fighter squadrons (1 x Hawker Hurricane, 4 x PZL 7, 2 x PZL 11, 3 x Heinkek -112, 3 x Me-109, 1 x Bloch-210, and 2 x Potez 63 and 3 x IAR-80), anyone have data on how many actual number of aircraft on the eve of Barbarossa ? Thank

And I knew Hungarian 's main fighters were FIAT CR-32 fighters and also with some Reggiane Re 2000 and FIAT CR 42, , anyone know the actual number of aircraft on the eve of start of Russo-German in June 1941 ? Thank
To be more exact:

The Magyar Királyi Légierő (Hungarian Royal Aif Force) had 30 squadrons in 1940/1941:
10 squadrons of Close Range Recce
2 squadrons of Long Range Recce
8 squadrons of Fighters
10 squadrons of Bombers
There was also a parachute battalion with at least 6 SM-75s.

With 326 front line aircraft, 118 training aircraft and 32 aerobatics aircraft, with a total of 476 (other sources claim 120 training aircrafts and thus a 478 total).

By 1941, the HRAF expanded quickly. Too quickly.

By the time of the Yugoslav invasion, the fighter forces were the 2nd and 6th Fighter Regiments, including 43 Messerschmitt Bf-109E-3, 18 Hurricane-I and more than 40 IK-2s and IK-3s. The bomber forces were the 1st, 3rd, 7th és 8th Bomber Regiments, with a little over 200 pieces, including Bristol Blenheims, Do-17Ks, Savoia-Marchetti (SM)- 79s and Breguet-19s .

In the Yugoslav invasion, the following units and types were used:
3/5. independent bomber squadron (Ca 135) from Hajdúböszörmény,
4/3. és 4/4. bomber squadrons (Ju 86) from Székesfehérvár,
1/1. és 1/2. fighter squadrons (CR 32) from Pécs,
1/3. és 1/4. fighter squadrons (CR 42) from Szeged,
2/3. és 2/4. fighter squadrons (CR 42) from Kecskemét.

By May 6, the forces whittled down because there was a huge protest against obsolete aircrafts.
School aircrafts 146
Training aircrafts: 27 (15 bomber and 12 fighter)
Towing: 5
Parachute transporter: 4
Long range recce: 13
Close range recce: 123
Bomber: 56
Fighter: 162
Altogether 363 front line aircrafts, plus 173 training aircrafts, SUM: 536.

The HRAF also possessed a few He-111s and He-70s.
Hi, Peter, thank for your information.

Hungarian had received 120 x CR 32, 68 x CR 42 and 70 x Reggiane Re 2000, but only 162 combat ready, attrition rate is so high ? And so did bomber force, she received 60 more each on He-86k and Caproni Ca.135, only 56 combat ready ? Thank

Peter89
Member
Posts: 1840
Joined: 28 Aug 2018 05:52
Location: Europe

Re: Romanian and Hungarian Aircraft breakdown June 1941

Post by Peter89 » 28 Apr 2021 15:28

Kelvin wrote:
28 Apr 2021 13:20

Hi, Peter, thank for your information.

Hungarian had received 120 x CR 32, 68 x CR 42 and 70 x Reggiane Re 2000, but only 162 combat ready, attrition rate is so high ? And so did bomber force, she received 60 more each on He-86k and Caproni Ca.135, only 56 combat ready ? Thank
Hey Kelvin,

it is a bit complicated. The CR 32s were so much worn out that they required a day-long repair and service after each active day. It's true that the HRA acquired a number of Re-2000s in December 1939, but they were immediately sent to MÁVAG to completely refit them with a new engine and a longer fuselage, etc. The first units equipped with Re-2000s (renamed as "Héja" or "Héja-I") reached the front only on August 10, 1941. As for the bombers, I think you refer to Junkers-86s. However, the HRAF's designations were funny that time; "Long Range Recce" ("Távolfelderítő") category meant He-111s and Ju-88s as well, and basically done long range bombing, so I think the discrepancy comes from there.

Here's the list of the HRAF's units engaged in combat:

1939 March, Kárpátalja
1/1. vadászszázad (Fiat CR 32)
1/2. vadászszázad (Fiat CR 32)
3/4. bombázó század (Junkers Ju 86)
3/5. bombázó század (Junkers Ju 86)
VI. közelfelderítő század (Heinkel He 46)
1. távolfelderítő osztály (Heinkel He 70)

1941 April, Yugoslavia
1/3. vadászszázad (Fiat CR 42)
1/4. vadászszázad (Fiat CR 42)
III. közelfelderítő század (WM 21)
1. távolfelderítő osztály (Heinkel He 70)

1941 Soviet Union
2/3. vadászszázad (Fiat CR 42)
1/3. vadászszázad (Fiat CR 42)
1/2. vadászszázad (Reggiane Re 2000)
önálló bombázószázad (Junkers Ju 86 és Caproni Ca 135)
I. közelfelderítő század (Heinkel He 46)
III. közelfelderítő század (WM 21)
X. közelfelderítő század (WM 21)
1. távolfelderítő osztály (Heinkel He 70)

1942 Soviet Union
1/1. vadászszázad (Reggiane Re 2000, majd Messerschmitt Bf 109F)
2/1. vadászszázad (Reggiane Re 2000)
4/1. bombázószázad (Caproni Ca 135)
3/2. közelfelderítő század (Heinkel He 46)
1. távolfelderítő osztály (Heinkel He 111P, Dornier Do 215B és Junkers Ju 88D)
“And while I am talking to you, mothers and fathers, I give you one more assurance. I have said this before, but I shall say it again, and again and again. Your boys are not going to be sent into any foreign wars." - FDR, October 1940

User avatar
TISO
Member
Posts: 1018
Joined: 23 Dec 2004 01:25
Location: Slovenia - vojvodina Å tajerska

Re: Romanian and Hungarian Aircraft breakdown June 1941

Post by TISO » 30 Apr 2021 17:43

1941 Soviet Union
önálló bombázószázad (Junkers Ju 86 és Caproni Ca 135)
In July of 1941 a mixed independent squadron (4/O Onallo Század) with 6 Ju 86K-2s of 4./IV Group and 6 Ca-135bis from 4./III Group was attached as a bomber unit to the Hungarian 1. Air Force Field Brigade commanded by Lt Col (alezredes) Béla Orosz, that had been tasked to provide air support to "Carpathian Group" (Kárpát Csoport) of the Hungarian Army in Soviet Union under command of General (Vezérezredes) Ferenc Szombathelyi which was attached to German 17th Army (Army Group South). They were reinforced from time to time due to wear and tear and accidents
1942 Soviet Union
4/1. bombázószázad (Caproni Ca 135)
This one is a bit tricky as different sources mention different units.
Regarding Caproni units during second deployment june-september (november) 1942, Nierhorster states that 4./6 and 4./7 squdrons were only bomber units (4./III Group i.e. III Group of 4.Bomber regiment) and were sent back to hungary in september but also states that 4./1 was sent back to Hungary in mid november (last op being on 31th of October). He does not include 4./1 squadron or its 4./I Group into his OBB at all neither does it mention anywhere except at the november return.

Source 2 states that 4./1 “Boszorkány” (Witch) squadron was sent east on 24th of june with 7 planes and 4 planes that followed a couple of days later. Few lines later when talking about other units (on page 21) it states:
"Certanly 12 He-46 aircraft arrived on 22nd of june but 9 Caproni Ca.135 bomber that arrived earlier lost one of their number when undercaridge broke on landing and the aircraft became unusable"
Source 2 only talks about 4./1 in RE Capronis and doesn't mention 4./6 and 4./7 at all. It says that Capronis were sent home in september and 4./1 landed in Hungary on 15th of November 1942 losing last plane with entire crew due explosion on 31th of october on last raid.
Sources:
1. The Royal Hungarian Army 1920-1945 Volume 1 – Organisation and History by Leo W.G. Niehorster (airforce is dealt with on pages 170-177) - great source on organisation, reorganisations, OBB's (can post link to the pdf if moderators allow)

2. Hungarian eagles Magyar Királyi Honvéd Légierő 1920-1945 (Hikoki publications) by Gyula Sárhidai (Author), Viktor Kozlik (Author), Győgy Punka (Author, Illustrator)

BTW to put in some shameless selfpromotion i did a short history for Caproni Ca.135bisU in Hungarian service compiled from various sources and posted it on Britmodeller forum as result of me buying a scale model of the beast. I was bored with same 2 sentances in any internet source.
As it is work in progress if there are any mistakes and corrections please inform me here and i will correct the text.
Second post on the thread link:
https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/ind ... nt-4004161

Kelvin
Member
Posts: 3020
Joined: 06 Apr 2007 14:49

Re: Romanian and Hungarian Aircraft breakdown June 1941

Post by Kelvin » 01 May 2021 10:27

Hi, Peter and TISO, thank for all your contribution.

CNE503
Member
Posts: 2395
Joined: 23 Aug 2010 12:01
Location: Dijon, Bourgogne, France

Re: Romanian and Hungarian Aircraft breakdown June 1941

Post by CNE503 » 02 May 2021 13:15

CNE503 wrote:
26 Apr 2021 12:35
[...]
I have the figures of serviceable aircrafts in DENES, KARLENKO and ROBA, From Barbarossa to Odessa: The Luftwaffe and Axis Allies Strike South-East June - October 1941, Vol. 1: The Air Battle for Bessarabia: 22 June-31 July 1941 (see here: https://www.amazon.com/Barbarossa-Odess ... oks&sr=1-1) but unfortunately I'm not at home right now. I could give these figures at the end of the week.
Here are the figures of serviceable fighters given in the book I mentioned for the Romanian Royal Air Force (FARR)'s Combat Air Grouping (GAL) on June 22nd, 1941:
- IAR 80: 23 available, 1 unavailable, total 24;
- Heinkel He 112B: 23 available, 5 unavailable, total 28;
- Messerschmitt Bf 109E: 30 available, 6 unavailable, total 36;
- total: 76 fighters available, 12 unavaiblable, total 88.

Unfortunately, the book doesn't provide figures about the air defense of Romania, covered with Grupuri 3, 4 and 6 Vânătoare and their P.11f and P.24E.
I stitch to my figures of 72 P.11f and 24 P.24E, but I cannot tell what were the amounts of available and unavailable ones.
It is the same with the "Hurricanes", which were 12 but I don't know how many were available and unavailable.

Concerning the bombers:
- Grupul 1 Bombardament (1st Bomber Wing), with Escadrile 71 and 72 Bombardament (71st and 72nd Bomber Squadrons): 22 Savoia-Marchetti SM.79B (16 available, 6 unavailable);
- Grupul 2 Bombardament (escadrile 74 and 75): 17 Potez 633 B2 (15 available, 2 unavailable);
- Grupul 4 Bombardament (escadrile 76 and 77): 15 PZL P.37 (12 available, 3 unavailable);
- Grupul 5 Bombardament (escadrile 78, 79 and 80): 27 Heinkel He 111H-3 (23 available, 4 unavailable);
- Grupul 6 mixt de bombardament (escadrile 18 and 82): 8 Marcel Bloch MB.210 (6 available, 2 unavailable) and 9 IAR 37 (8 available, 1 unavailable);
- total 80 available bombers, 18 unavailable ones, total 98.

Concerning the recon aircrafts:
- 28 Bristol "Blenheim" (25 available, 3 unavailable);
- 46 IAR 38 (40/6);
- 77 IAR 39 (64/13).

Concerning seaplanes:
- 10 CANT Z.501;
- 7 Savoia-Marchetti SM.62bis;
- 4 Savoia-Marchetti SM.55.

Regards,
CNE503
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

CNE503
Member
Posts: 2395
Joined: 23 Aug 2010 12:01
Location: Dijon, Bourgogne, France

Re: Romanian and Hungarian Aircraft breakdown June 1941

Post by CNE503 » 02 May 2021 13:40

Concerning the MKHL (Royal Hungarian Air Force), Bernad, Karlenko and Roba give the following figures for June 27th, 1941: 269 serviceable aircrafts, with about 50 were engaged directly in the early stages of the campaign.

They report that on June 27th, 1941, FIAT CR.42 of 2./II vadaszosztaly (Fighter Group), from Nyiregyhaza airfield, flew offensive sweeps over Soviet territory. Also, 9 WM-21 "Solyom" of X. "Solyomszem" közelfeldritö-szazad (short-range recon squadron) made reconnaissance missions this day. Two of them (F.224 and F.297) collided on Ungvar airfield.
At around 0800, around 30 Junkers Ju 86K of 4/3. and 4/4. bombazoszazad (bomber squadrons) and Caproni Ca.145 of 3/5. bombazoszazad performed a large-scale bombing mission against Stanislav (Ivano-Frankovsk). They were escorted with 9 FIAT CR.42 of 2/3. "Ricsi" vadaszszazad (fighter squadron).
The fighters claimed a Soviet R-5 reconnaissance aircraft shot down, which was considered as the first air kill of the MKHL during the conflict. A gunner in a Ju 86 claimed a Soviet I-153 but the claim was not confirmed.
A CR.42 force-landed after being hit by AA fire. It is the first combat loss of the Hungarian air force too.

No operation is reported for June 28th.

For June 29th, Ju 86K-2 and Ca.135bis escorted with CR.42 targeted Striy. Hungarian fighters intercepted seven Soviet bombers over Csap (Chop). A two-man WM-21 crashed during a recon mission, the crewmen were both killed, being the first human losses of MKHL.

NTR for June 30th.

On July 1st, a Heinkel He 70K was intercepted by Soviet fighters, damaged and force-landed on Hungarian soiled.
In the evening, 18 Ju 86, 9 Ca.135 escorted by two squadrons of CR.42 bombed Delatin railway station and Soviet troops concentrations.

On July 2nd, 4/4. bombazaszad's Ju 86 reinforced by 8 Ca.135 of 3/5. performed bombing missions over Stanislav, Zaleschiky and Snyatyn.

On July 3rd, the same squadrons bombed Kamenets-Podolski and Buchach as well as bridges over the Dniestr. A Ca.135bis (B.534) and a Ju 86K (B.322) were slightly damaged, while a WM-21 (coded F.223) was 90% destroyed after having overturned while landing.

And so on...

Regards,
CNE503
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

User avatar
TISO
Member
Posts: 1018
Joined: 23 Dec 2004 01:25
Location: Slovenia - vojvodina Å tajerska

Re: Romanian and Hungarian Aircraft breakdown June 1941

Post by TISO » 02 May 2021 19:30

CNE503 wrote:
02 May 2021 13:40

At around 0800, around 30 Junkers Ju 86K of 4/3. and 4/4. bombazoszazad (bomber squadrons) and Caproni Ca.145 of 3/5. bombazoszazad performed a large-scale bombing mission against Stanislav (Ivano-Frankovsk). They were escorted with 9 FIAT CR.42 of 2/3. "Ricsi" vadaszszazad (fighter squadron).
.
.
.
On July 2nd, 4/4. bombazaszad's Ju 86 reinforced by 8 Ca.135 of 3/5. performed bombing missions over Stanislav, Zaleschiky and Snyatyn.
.
.
.Regards,
CNE503
Could You be please so kind to check the Caproni Ca.135 unit?
From what i gather 3 bomber regiment was disbanded/reorganised into 4. bomber regiment in early june 1941 before the war against the SSSR.
Do You have more? Please (insert hopefull emoji here)

I will include Your info into my short history on Ca.135 in Hungarian service

Peter89
Member
Posts: 1840
Joined: 28 Aug 2018 05:52
Location: Europe

Re: Romanian and Hungarian Aircraft breakdown June 1941

Post by Peter89 » 03 May 2021 09:20

CNE503 wrote:
02 May 2021 13:40
Concerning the MKHL (Royal Hungarian Air Force), Bernad, Karlenko and Roba give the following figures for June 27th, 1941: 269 serviceable aircrafts, with about 50 were engaged directly in the early stages of the campaign.

They report that on June 27th, 1941, FIAT CR.42 of 2./II vadaszosztaly (Fighter Group), from Nyiregyhaza airfield, flew offensive sweeps over Soviet territory. Also, 9 WM-21 "Solyom" of X. "Solyomszem" közelfeldritö-szazad (short-range recon squadron) made reconnaissance missions this day. Two of them (F.224 and F.297) collided on Ungvar airfield.
At around 0800, around 30 Junkers Ju 86K of 4/3. and 4/4. bombazoszazad (bomber squadrons) and Caproni Ca.145 of 3/5. bombazoszazad performed a large-scale bombing mission against Stanislav (Ivano-Frankovsk). They were escorted with 9 FIAT CR.42 of 2/3. "Ricsi" vadaszszazad (fighter squadron).
The fighters claimed a Soviet R-5 reconnaissance aircraft shot down, which was considered as the first air kill of the MKHL during the conflict. A gunner in a Ju 86 claimed a Soviet I-153 but the claim was not confirmed.
A CR.42 force-landed after being hit by AA fire. It is the first combat loss of the Hungarian air force too.

No operation is reported for June 28th.

For June 29th, Ju 86K-2 and Ca.135bis escorted with CR.42 targeted Striy. Hungarian fighters intercepted seven Soviet bombers over Csap (Chop). A two-man WM-21 crashed during a recon mission, the crewmen were both killed, being the first human losses of MKHL.

NTR for June 30th.

On July 1st, a Heinkel He 70K was intercepted by Soviet fighters, damaged and force-landed on Hungarian soiled.
In the evening, 18 Ju 86, 9 Ca.135 escorted by two squadrons of CR.42 bombed Delatin railway station and Soviet troops concentrations.

On July 2nd, 4/4. bombazaszad's Ju 86 reinforced by 8 Ca.135 of 3/5. performed bombing missions over Stanislav, Zaleschiky and Snyatyn.

On July 3rd, the same squadrons bombed Kamenets-Podolski and Buchach as well as bridges over the Dniestr. A Ca.135bis (B.534) and a Ju 86K (B.322) were slightly damaged, while a WM-21 (coded F.223) was 90% destroyed after having overturned while landing.

And so on...

Regards,
CNE503
Well, to be fair, the Hungarian mechanized forces in early war were rather integrated, but the whole infrastructure apparatus behind them was lackluster. As late as the Yugoslav campaign, the high command was shocked by the amount of supplies needed by a bomber squadron. This happened literally a few months before Barbarossa. I do not devote too much time for the research of the exact numbers - this is quite maddening because of the conflicting sources. The same applies to the T-38 tanks and their numbers. The thing is that the Hungarian officer corps, as well as the reporting system was not really coherent. Meaning, they counted the machines, but sometimes did include training machines, sometimes not. Sometimes designated machines with training or commanding equipment as "serviceable", but in fact those were not armed and ready to fight. Sometimes machines designated "unserviceable" were in fact in good condition, but needed fuel, bombs or other stuff. Sometimes planes were used in many different roles, and put it into a matrix with the serviceable / unserviceable reporting problems... to get a serious headache :D
“And while I am talking to you, mothers and fathers, I give you one more assurance. I have said this before, but I shall say it again, and again and again. Your boys are not going to be sent into any foreign wars." - FDR, October 1940

CNE503
Member
Posts: 2395
Joined: 23 Aug 2010 12:01
Location: Dijon, Bourgogne, France

Re: Romanian and Hungarian Aircraft breakdown June 1941

Post by CNE503 » 03 May 2021 11:08

TISO wrote:
02 May 2021 19:30
Could You be please so kind to check the Caproni Ca.135 unit?
From what i gather 3 bomber regiment was disbanded/reorganised into 4. bomber regiment in early june 1941 before the war against the SSSR.
Do You have more? Please (insert hopefull emoji here)

I will include Your info into my short history on Ca.135 in Hungarian service
Hello,

I have not a lot to say, so I will quote the order of battle given by Bernad, Karlenko and Roba in the book I use as a reference.

"Order of Battle of the Magyar Kiralyi Honvéd Légierö
(Royal Hungarian Home Defense Air Force) mid-June 1941

1/I. vadaszosztaly HQ / Szolnok / ?
1/1. "Dongo" vadaszosztaly / Ungvar / FIAT CR.32
1/2. "Ludas Matyi" vadaszosztaly / Felsöabrany / FIAT CR.32 but part of this squadron was equipped with Reggiane Re.2000 and was trained in Szolnok (arrived at the front on August 7th, 1941)
1/3. "Kör asz" vadaszosztaly / Budapest-Matyasföld / FIAT CR.42
1/4. "Szent György" vadaszosztaly / Budapest-Matyasföld / FIAT CR.42

2/I. vadaszosztaly HQ / Nyiregyhaza / ?
2/1. "Macko" vadaszosztaly / Nyiregyhaza / FIAT CR.32
2/2. "Puma" vadaszosztaly / Nyiregyhaza / FIAT CR.32
2/3. "Ricsi" vadaszosztaly / Bustyahaza / FIAT CR.42
2/4. "Repülö tör" vadaszosztaly / Miskolc / FIAT CR.42

3/II. / Kecskemet / Ju 86K (practically disbanded on June 1st, 1941)

3/III. bombazosztaly HQ / Debrecen / ?
3/5. "Boszorkany" bombazosztaly / Debrecen / Caproni Ca.135bis

4/II. bombazosztaly HQ / Veszprem / ?
4/1. "Isten nyila" bombazosztaly / Tapolca / Ju 86K
4/2. "Isten kardja" bombazosztaly / Tapolca / Ju 86K
4/3. "Sarga vihar" bombazosztaly / Veszprem / Ju 86K
4/4. "Buzogany" bombazosztaly / Veszprem / Ju 86K

I. "Hollo" közelfelderitö-szazad / Budapest-Matyasföld / He 46E
III. "Solyom" közelfelderitö-szazad / Budapest-Matyasföld / WM-21
IV. "Somogyi bicska" közelfelderitö-szazad / Kaposvar / He 46E
VII. "Kocsonyas Béka" közelfelderitö-szazad / Miskolc / WM-21
VIII. "Ludas Matyi" közelfelderitö-szazad / Ungvar / WM-21
X. "Solyomszem" közelfelderitö-szazad / Ungvar / WM-21

1. "Mérföldes csizma" önallo tavolfelderitö-osztaly / Budapest-Budaörs and Ungvar / He 111P, He 70K and Ju 86K".

vadaszosztaly = fighter wing
bombazosztaly = bomber wing
közelfelderitö-szazad = recon squadron
önallo tavolfelderitö-osztaly = long range recon squadron

So I guess that contrary to the rest of the wing, the fifth squadron of the fifth bomber wing (3/5. "Boszorkany") was not disbanded in late June 1941, and operated alongside the fourth one.

CNE503
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

Return to “Minor Axis Nations”