Romanian Potez 633 and MB 210

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CNE503
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Romanian Potez 633 and MB 210

Post by CNE503 » 07 Apr 2020 10:39

Hello,

Does anyone know where were stationed the Romanian units that were serving these aircrafts in June-July 1941?
These units were the 2nd Bomber Group (Grupul 2 Bombardament, 23x Potez 633 B2) and the 82nd independant Bomber Squadron (Escadrile 82 Bombardament, 12x Marcel Bloch MB 210).
The main airfields used for bomber units in Romania were Pogoanele (Grupul 1 Bombardament, SM.79B), Ziliştea (now Zilișteanca if I'm not mistaken - Grupuri 4 and 5 Bombardament, PZL.37 and He 111) and Focșani (german bomber units), but I'm unable to track the two units aforementioned there.

Thank you by any help provided.
Regards,
CNE503
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

Brad Hunter
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Location: Raleigh, NC

Re: Romanian Potez 633 and MB 210

Post by Brad Hunter » 07 Apr 2020 16:36

From my notes from about ten years ago (see my previous post replying to you).

1) Unfortunately, apparently, there are no comprehensive air unit studies for the AAR as there are for the USAAF, RAF, Regia Aeronautica, or Luftwaffe, either in English, or Rumanian. I have pieced together this information based on the sources listed.

2) When the Rumanians rotated units out of combat, the unit would be stood-down, but not disbanded. These units existed, but would then not be mentioned in reports, but show up again when re-activated. This makes it difficult to track the chronology for some units.

3) The Rumanian term for their Air Force was “Fortelor Aeriene Regale Romane.” I have been instructed that the proper, Rumanian, abbreviation for this is “AAR,” not “FARR” as we see in many English-language sources.

Fortelor Aeriene Regale Romane – 06/41 – “Royal Rumanian Air Force” – “ARR”
Gruparea Aeriana de Lupta – “Air Combat Group” – “GAL” – Subordinated to Luftflotte 4.
--Escadrilele 1.Recunoastere-Bombardament – 10 x Blenheim I
--Escadrilele 111.Legatura – 9 x Fleet 10G
--Flotila 1.Vanatoare
----Grup 5.Vanatoare (23/5)
------Escadrilele 51.Vanatoare – 14 x He.112B
------Escadrilele 52.Vanatoare – 14 x He.112B
----Grup 7.Vanatoare (30/6)
------Escadrilele 56.Vanatoare – 12 x Bf.109E-3
------Escadrilele 57.Vanatoare – 12 x Bf.109E-3
------Escadrilele 58.Vanatoare – 12 x Bf.109E-3
------Escadrilele 116.Legatura – 9 x Fleet 10G
----Grup 8.Vanatoare (23/1)
------Escadrilele 41.Vanatoare – 8 x IAR.80 (early)
------Escadrilele 59.Vanatoare – 8 x IAR.80 (early)
------Escadrilele 60.Vanatoare – 8 x IAR.80 (early)
--Flotila 1.Bombardament
----Grup 4.Bombardament (12/3)
------Escadrilele 76.Bombardament – 8 x PZL.37BLos
------Escadrilele 77.Bombardament – 7 x PZL.37BLos
----Grup 5.Bombardament (23/4)
------Escadrilele 78.Bombardament – 9 x He.111H-3
------Escadrilele 79.Bombardament – 9 x He.111H-3
------Escadrilele 80.Bombardament – 9 x He.111H-3
--Flotila 2.Bombardament
----Grup 1.Bombardament (16/6)
------Escadrilele 71.Bombardament – 11 x SM.79B
------Escadrilele 72.Bombardament – 11 x SM.79B
----Grup 2.Bombardament (15/2 Potez 633B2)
------Escadrilele 74.Bombardament – 9 x Potez.633B2
------Escadrilele 75.Bombardament – 8 x Potez.633B2
------Escadrilele 82.Bombardament – 8 x Bloch MB.210 (6/2)
------Escadrilele 18.Observatie – 9 x IAR.37 (8/1) (Equipped as bombers)
--Flotila 2.Garda
----Grup 1.Garda
------Escadrilele 11.Observatie – 9 x IAR.38
------Escadrilele 12.Observatie – 9 x IAR.38
----Grup 2.Garda
------Escadrilele 13.Observatie – 9 x IAR.38
------Escadrilele 14.Observatie – 9 x IAR.39

Armata 3. – Air Units attached to 3rd Army
--Escadrilele 4.Recunoastere-Bombardament – 10 x Blenheim I
--Escadrilele 19.Observatie – 9 x IAR.39, 1 x MIG-3 (From 12/41)
--Escadrilele 20.Observatie – 9 x IAR.39
--Escadrilele 21.Observatie – 9 x IAR.39
--Escadrilele 115.Legatura – 9 x Fleet 10G
Armata 4. – Air Units attached to 4th Army
--Escadrilele 3.Recunoastere-Bombardament – 10 x Blenheim I
--Escadrilele 17.Observatie – 9 x IAR.39
--Escadrilele 22.Observatie – 9 x IAR.39
--Escadrilele 114.Legatura – 9 x Fleet 10G
Divizia 1.Blindata – Air Unit attached to 1st Armored Diviion
--Escadrilele 15.Observatie – 9 x IAR.39

Apararea Territoriului – “Home Defense”
Regiunea 2.Aeriana
--Flotila 3.Vanatoare
----Grup 3.Vanatoare
------Escadrilele 43.Vanatoare – 12 x PZL.11F
------Escadrilele 44.Vanatoare – 12 x PZL.11F
------Escadrilele 45.Vanatoare – 12 x PZL.11F
----Grup 4.Vanatoare
------Escadrilele 46.Vanatoare – 12 x PZL.11F
------Escadrilele 49.Vanatoare – 12 x PZL.11F
------Escadrilele 50.Vanatoare – 12 x PZL.11F
----Escadrilele 112.Legatura – 9 x Fleet 10G
Regiunea 3.Aeriana
--Flotila 2.Vanatoare
----Grup 6.Vanatoare
------Escadrilele 61.Vanatoare – 12 x PZL.24E
------Escadrilele 62.Vanatoare – 12 x PZL.24E
----Escadrilele 113.Legatura – 9 x Fleet 10G

[Total PZL Fighters – All Types – 102/22]

Comandamentul Aero “Dobrogea”
--Escadrilele 53.Vanatoare – 13 x Hurricane I (10/3)
--Escadrilele 101.Hidro-Patrulare – 10 x CantZ.501
--Escadrilele 102.Hidro-Informatie si Bombardament – 7 x SM.62B, 4 x SM.55A, 1 x SM.56
--Escadrilele 16.Observatie – 9 x IAR.39

Grup Aerotransport (From 11/41)
--Escadrilele 105.Transport – 12 x Ju.52/3m
--Escadrilele 106.Transport – (Also “Escadrilele LARES”) – Various Misc. Civilian Transports
--Escadrilele Sanitara 108.Transport Usore – 5 x RWD.13S – Medivac (Female Pilots)

Other Totals: Ready/Under Repair
--Blenheim I – 28/3
--IAR.38 – 46/6
--IAR.39 – 77/13

Theoretical Unit Structure:
Fighter Squadron – 12 x Fighter
Bomber Squadron – 9 x Bomber
Seaplane Squadron – 12 x Seaplane
Observation Squadron – 9 x Aircraft
Cooperation Squadron – 9 x Aircraft

NOTE: GAL withdrawn from the Eastern Front from 10/17/41 to 08/01/42. Only Escadrilele 43.Vanatoare (12 x PZL.11F, transitions to 12 x IAR80.A/B), and Escadrilele 20.Observatie (9 x IAR.39) remained in the Crimea.

SOURCES:

1) Axworthy, Mark, “Third Axis Fourth Ally,” Arms and Armour Press, London, UK, 1995.

2) Bernad, Denes, “Rumanian Air Force, The Prime Decade, 1938-1947,” Squadron/Signal Publications, Carrollton, TX, 1999.

3) Pascu, Stefan, et al, “Romania in anii celui de-al doilea Razboi Mondial,” 3 Volumes, Editura Militara, Bucharest, Rumania, 1989.

4) Scafes, Cornel, et al, “Armata Romana 1941-1945,” Editura RAI, Bucharest, Rumania, 1996.

CNE503
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Re: Romanian Potez 633 and MB 210

Post by CNE503 » 07 Apr 2020 17:49

Thank you, that's pretty excellent and very useful.
But it doesn't answer my question, though: on what airfields were the units that used Potez 633 and Bloch MB 210 deployed?

Thanks again for your very interesting information.
Regards,
CNE503
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

Brad Hunter
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Location: Raleigh, NC

Re: Romanian Potez 633 and MB 210

Post by Brad Hunter » 07 Apr 2020 19:28

During 06/41, the units you are asking about were at the airfield in Dilistea.

CNE503
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Re: Romanian Potez 633 and MB 210

Post by CNE503 » 07 Apr 2020 19:50

I suppose that by "Dilistea" you mean Ziliştea (today Zilişteanca, c. 45° 13' 30'' N – 26° 58' 30'' E, just north of Buzău), right?
So they were deployed alongside Grupuri 4 and 5 Bombardament.
Thank you very much for that and the other information, very appreciated!
Regards,
CNE503
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

CNE503
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Posts: 2395
Joined: 23 Aug 2010 12:01
Location: Dijon, Bourgogne, France

Re: Romanian Potez 633 and MB 210

Post by CNE503 » 07 Apr 2020 20:49

Another question is coming, since you are very well informed: where (I mean on which airfields) were deployed the Grupuri 3, 4 and 6 Vânătoare (those equipped with either PZL P.11f or PZL P.24E)?

Thank you again!
Regards,
CNE503
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

Brad Hunter
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Location: Raleigh, NC

Re: Romanian Potez 633 and MB 210

Post by Brad Hunter » 08 Apr 2020 15:21

Grup 3.Vanatoare - Ploesti
Grup 4.Vanatoare - Arad
Grup 6.Vanatoare - Bucharest

CNE503
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Re: Romanian Potez 633 and MB 210

Post by CNE503 » 08 Apr 2020 16:38

Thank you Brad!
If I may add something, it was probably Floreşti (the main airfield near Ploiesti), Arad-Gai and Bucarest-Otopeni.
That clears the whole thing up, your help was greatly appreciated, really.
Regards,

CNE503
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

CNE503
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Posts: 2395
Joined: 23 Aug 2010 12:01
Location: Dijon, Bourgogne, France

Re: Romanian Potez 633 and MB 210

Post by CNE503 » 15 Apr 2020 13:55

End of the game (at least for June 14th, 1941), this is the complete organization of the Axis air forces in Romania for this day.
Source: NARA T501 R270 file 636.

CNE503
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"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

Brad Hunter
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Re: Romanian Potez 633 and MB 210

Post by Brad Hunter » 15 Apr 2020 22:11

Awesome find!

Brady
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Re: Romanian Potez 633 and MB 210

Post by Brady » 11 Jul 2022 15:41

Were:

Grup 2.Bombardament (15/2 Potez 633B2)
------Escadrilele 74.Bombardament – 9 x Potez.633B2
------Escadrilele 75.Bombardament – 8 x Potez.633B2

Involved in the Fighting around Stalingrad ?

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