Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

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Linkagain
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Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by Linkagain » 03 Oct 2021 14:32

Julius Caesar was a clever politian and a masterful military leader...once when he was besiging a City in Gaul the Gaul tried to hem him in with a seige wall of their own..he countered by besiging them!

Although William Manchester could be a through biographer {The Death of A President; The Arms of Krupp; the Last Lion] his biography "Douglas MacArthur American Caesar" is just not up to par....While MacArthur did as Proconsul of Japan actually succeded in many [But not all ways] to bring Japan to the 20th Century when he ran for President in 1952 he Didnt even carry his home state of Wisconsin....AS for his reputatuin as a Great Stragist...Well it is true that as a Theater Commander the Phillippines were liberated thanks to the US 8th Army under Walter Kruger; the US Navy; the USMC and British and Australian ALlies......It obvious he never read San Tzu....how else to explain his two inglorious defeats....December 1941 His air forces are destroyed by the IJN in the Phillippines and nine years later in November 1950 almost on the anniversayry of his Phillippne Debachle the Chinese enter the Korea War,,,,[wnich negated his one piece of orginal military Planning in Korea (Inchon Landings)]......among the factors...His refusal to accept that the Chinese would actually attack him [as they had hinted} his making his Chief of Staff Ned ALmond also a Field Army commander; his refusal to have aLmond forces fight in concert with Walton Walker forces in Pusan; His letting US Forces to the Yalu River instead of the more sensible acourse of letting SOuth Koreans chasing the North Koreans and keeping the US Forces behind the line as support Troops; his deleberate insuboration to the Commander In Chief Harry S Truman; The Refusal of MacArthur and The GOP to understand that Chaing Kai Shek was in permennet exhile in Formosa and that not even a victory of reuniting Korea would have led to the other thors of the PRC in China and the restoration of Chaing Kai Shek.... :lol: :lol:

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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by OpanaPointer » 03 Oct 2021 15:02

His management of the MacArthur Shogunate was a credit to his subordinates and the Japanese more than to anything he did.
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Linkagain
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by Linkagain » 03 Oct 2021 18:44

I do agree that MacArthur the only person who could and did being Japan to the 20th Century ..but not in all ways.....
Three black marks for his conduct in Japan:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomoyuki_Yamashita#Trial
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masaharu_Homma
and two black mark of his conduct in the Philluppines:
Not trying Jose Laurel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jose_P._Laurel
Backing of Roxas in the Phillippines in 1946
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_Ro ... and_career

paulrward
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by paulrward » 04 Oct 2021 03:23

Hello All :

Mr. Linkagain posted the following screed, which I have subdivided, corrected the spelling
and syntax, and addressed point by point.
Julius Ceasar was a clever politician and a masterful military leader...
once when he was besieging a City in Gaul the Gauls tried to hem him in with
a siege wall of their own, he countered by besieging them!

Julius Caesar was such a clever politician that he was killed by a group led by his own son,
Brutus. And, let us note, Julius Caesar was such a masterful military leader that he was
defeated by the Britons, and forced to retreat back to Gaul.
Although William Manchester could be a thorough biographer {The
Death of A President; The Arms of Krupp; the Last Lion] his biography
"Douglas MacArthur American Caesar" is just not up to par....

William Manchester was a committed New Dealer, who worshipped at the altar of Freewheelin'
Franklin Roosevelt and Harry ' The Haberdasher' Truman. He set out to write a ' Hit Piece '
about MacArthur ( after MacArthur was safely dead ! ) and his publisher took his title and ran
with it, spreading a lot of pre-publication publicity about how Manchester would ' dismantle
' the MacArthur legend..... Then, something strange happened: The more he learned about
MacArthur, the more Manchester came to respect and admire him. His book, instead of being
a 'Hit Piece' , instead serves as a useful adjunct to MacArthur's own autobiography,
' Reminiscences ' . I strongly recommend both books for anyone who wishes to get through
the wall of lies and B.S. spread by Liberals, Socialists, Marxists, and just plain ignorant fools
about MacArthur.
While MacArthur, as Proconsul of Japan actually succeeded in many
( But not all) ways to bring Japan to the 20th Century,

Man, the B.S. is getting deep here...... MacArthur's official title while he was in Japan was
' The Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers ' (SCAP)

While MacArthur was SCAP in Japan, He worked with the Japanese to dismantle the Japanese
Army, banning military officers from entering the new government.

MacArthur also introduced Land Reform, designed to benefit the majority tenant farmers.
and broke up the large Japanese business conglomerates, or Zaibatsu
In 1947, MacArthur essentially wrote a new Constitution for Japan’s leaders. Some of the
most profound changes in the document included:
1. Downgrading the Emperor’s status to that of a figurehead
2. Placing more power in the parliamentary system, with
free and open elections
3. Promoting greater rights and privileges for women
4. Ensuring the right of Japanese workers to join Unions
5. Ending the Military's domination of the School System
6. Abolishing the KenPeiTai ( Japan's Secret Police )
7. Renouncing the right to wage war

Despite Post War Economic troubles in Japan in late 1947 to 1948 the economic rehabilitation
of Japan was successfully carried out, making a Communist take-over of Japan impossible.
The outbreak of the Korean War in 1950 provided SCAP with just the opportunity it needed
to address Japan's economic problems. After the UN entered the Korean War, Japan
became the principal supply depot for UN forces, greatly spurring the reconstruction of
Japan's industries.

The third phase of the occupation, beginning in 1950, led to the government and economy
of Japan being firmly established. .
When he ran for President in 1952 he didn't even carry his
home state of Wisconsin....
In 1972, George McGovern was defeated in his home state of South Dakota by.......
Richard Milhous Nixon ! Who was driven from office in disgrace less than two years later.....
As for his reputation as a Great Strategist...
Remember, He was considered a Great Strategist by Winston Churchill, who, along with
John Curtin, Prime Minister of Australia, insisted he be put in command of the Liberation
of the Philippines. While re-taking New Guinea, MacArthur took more territory, and
inflicted more enemy casualties with fewer troops, less equipment, and lower casualties
than ANY other U.S. Commander in WW2. His Philippine Campaign is STILL studied as
an example of brilliant strategy.
Well it is true that as Theater Commander, the Philippines
were liberated thanks to the US 8th Army under Walter Kruger; the
US Navy; the USMC and British and Australian Allies.....
Gee.... What you are saying is that the Philippines were liberated by the forces commanded
by..... Douglas MacArthur !
.It obvious he never read Sun Tzu....how else to explain his two
inglorious defeats....
"I always kept a copy of The Art of War on my desk." - General Douglas MacArthur,
5 Star General & Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers.
United States Military Posture for FY1989 (Washington,
DC: U.S. Government Printing Office, 1989), 5–6, 93–94.

It is obvious that YOU have never done even five minutes of research on MacArthur -
I found this quote in less than that time just by going on Wikipedia !
December 1941 His Air Forces are destroyed by the IJN in
the Philippines

This was hashed out years ago. The one, single person responsible for the loss of the
Philippines Air Forces was General Brereton, who made a series of blunders on December
8th that led to the destruction of half the B-17s and about half of the P-40s and P-35s
in the islands. MacArthur was NOT responsible for this disaster - it was all due to
Brereton, who had a reputation for mental instability, alcoholism, poor performance,
and, arguably, cowardice, that followed him throughout his career.

Nine years later in November 1950 almost on the anniversary of his
Philippine Debacle the Chinese enter the Korea War,,,,[which negated his
one piece of original military Planning in Korea (Inchon Landings)]......
among the factors...
That's right, the Chinese entered the Korean War in November, 1950, by sending a million
poorly equipped, poorly clothed, under-armed, ill fed, and badly trained troops into Korea.
While they made early, initial gains, the lines were stabilized within two months, at which
point the Chinese Army began to freeze to death in the snow. The Death Toll on the Chinese
was so great that even today, the PRC Government cannot give an accurate tally of their
dead and wounded -their own estimates range wildly from 300,000 casualties to over 800,000 !

His refusal to accept that the Chinese would actually attack him
[as they had hinted}

Well, the Chinese sent in an Army, and got a lot less of it back. Maybe MacArthur was just
unable to accept that Mao Tse-tung was so stupid he was willing to lose an entire army,
including his own son, in a foolish attack in mid winter with untrained and ill equiped troops !
His making his Chief of Staff Edward Almond also a Field Army
commander;

General Edward Almond's career had, like many officers, ups and downs. He had commanded
troops in both World Wars, was well respected by many of his contemporaries, others had issues
with him. His racial beliefs were those of a man of his time and his heritage. He did, in fact,
get surprised by the Chinese Offensive of November 1950, but bounced back and did sterling
work in the mop-up of the Chinese Army in 1951.

The worst that could be said of him was a statement made by one of his fellow officers: " When
it paid to be aggressive, Ned was aggressive. When it paid to be cautious, Ned was aggressive."

Among other awards and honors he won during his miltary career :

Distinguished Service Cross with Oak Leaf Cluster
Distinguished Service Medal with Oak Leaf Cluster
Silver Star with Oak Leaf Cluster
Distinguished Flying Cross with 2 Oak Leaf Clusters
Bronze Star with "V" device and Oak Leaf Cluster
Air Medal with 15 Oak Leaf Clusters
Army Commendation Medal with 2 Oak Leaf Clusters
Purple Heart
Korean Service Medal with 4 Campaign Stars
(South Korea)Presidential Unit Citation
(South Korea)United Nations Medal for Korea
His refusal to have Almond's forces fight in concert with Walton
Walker's forces in Pusan;
Even an idiot can see that Almonds' forces were being kept in reserve, with their equipment
being preserved and their manpower being kept fresh, so that they could carry out the landings
at Inchon. If they had been ' frittered away ' down south at Pusan, there would have been no
Miracle at Inchon,

His letting US Forces to the Yalu River instead of the more sensible
course of letting South Koreans chasing the North Koreans and keeping the
US Forces behind the line as support Troops;
Let me see if I understand your somewhat tortured reasoning: You are saying that, when
you are pursuing a defeated enemy, you should keep your best troops in reserve, and only
go forward with your most poorly trained, worst equipped, and under-strength units in
the lead.....

I'll bet you got REALLY good grades at the Army War College......

His deliberate insubordination to the Commander In Chief Harry S Truman;

Let's get one thing straight: Truman didn't fire MacArthur because he was insubordinate,
he fired MacArthur because every time someone compared MacArthur to Truman, Truman
came off looking like the scrawny, weasely, crooked little hack politician he was. Truman
was a failure as a Farmer, a failure as a Businessman, and he got his political offices because
he was a tool of the Pendergast Political Machine, which ran a big chunk of Missouri until
they all got rounded up and put in jail for corruption. The only reason Truman escaped was
because, as soon as he arrived in Washington as the Senator from Pendergast, he attached
himself to the Roosevelt New Dealers, voted the Party Line, and kept his mouth shut.

His time as President was marked by corruption, scandals, and military and diplomatic defeats,
and he wisely chose not to run in 1952 rather than being stomped by Eisenhower.

The refusal of MacArthur and The GOP to understand that Chiang Kai-shek
was in permanent exile in Formosa and that not even a victory of reuniting Korea
would have led to the overthrow of the PRC in China and the restoration of
Chiang Kai-shek....
.

The fact is, the only reason the Mao's Communists won in 1949 was because George C. Marshall
didn't like Chiang Kai-shek. As a result, China became communist, at least 10 million people
were murdered in two years, and we are still paying the price for Marshall's stupidity.

October 14th is coming.



First, you need to use spell check before you post things.
Second, do your homework.
Information not shared, is information lost
Voices that are banned, are voices who cannot share information....
Discussions that are silenced, are discussions that will occur elsewhere !

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by Sid Guttridge » 04 Oct 2021 05:35

Hi Guys,

I always look upon MacArthur's attempted defiance of civil authority as his most "Caesar Moment".

He lost in the Philippines against a Japanese landing force that he initially outnumbered 2:1. The Philippines debacle was the USA's equivalent to the British disaster in Malaya. The USA, however, sensibly turned it into more of a Dunkirk Moment in propaganda terms. It also, perhaps rightly, did not blame MacArthur for the disaster.

Thereafter, once the US Navy had achieved naval supremacy and overwhelming US resources began to flow, MacArthur handled the fight back well. He also handled the fightback in Korea well but was undoubtedly wrong-footed by Chinese intervention.

MacArthur seems to have been above average but short of true greatness. Certainly, as a soldier, he was no Caesar. He is also the reason why a 1970s military atlas of the world showed the USA as having a not entirely politically reliable army.

Cheers,

Sid

P.S. Caesar was not defeated by the British.

rcocean
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by rcocean » 18 Oct 2021 01:22

This post should be the USA section, or if Axis History has it - the book section. It mixes up Korean war, US Pacific war, Julius Cesaer, and Manchester's book. No idea what the sources the OP are using for all his assertions.

ChristopherPerrien
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 18 Oct 2021 14:10

I will suggest John Costello "Days of Infamy" for a "revised" view of the actions of MacArthur, FDR Churchill and the Fall of the Philippines.

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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by BobTheBarbarian » 18 Oct 2021 19:55

I should also point out that Mao's initial goal during the Korean war was the conquest of South Korea and the complete annihilation of the UN force there. After the initial surprise his troops met with disaster after disaster until finally he gave up trying to take the south and settled for simply holding on to North Korea - after the start of negotiations more or less put an end to any big pushes from either side.
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Steve
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by Steve » 19 Oct 2021 00:03

On October 2nd the Indian ambassador in China was informed that if America crossed the 38th Parallel China would intervene in Korea. Truman dismissed the warning and the Americans crossed on October 9th. The initial Chinese force to enter Korea was organised as the XIII Army Group; it comprised four armies, each of three 10,000 man infantry divisions, a cavalry regiment, and five regiments of artillery. The units were made up of veterans imbued with revolutionary zeal. They were well dressed for the weather and were not starving but were equipped with weapons from a variety of sources. The Yalu bridges were crossed at night and the Americans did not discern any evidence of the movement of 130,000 soldiers and porters. The US eighth army was decisively beaten in 1950.

From The Korean War by Max Hastings 1987.

Some sources give a much higher number for the Chinese. Hastings visited China in 1985, toured the Chinese Command and Staff College and discussed the campaign. He seems to have used figures provided by the Chinese.

Though it could be argued that Caesars invasion of Briton was a failure he was never defeated by the Britons in a battle.

rcocean
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by rcocean » 20 Oct 2021 20:53

Its been pointed out a million times that Left-wing English authors like Costello and Hastings are anti-American and completely unreliable when it comes to the US military effort in WW2 and Korea. Costello's book "Days of Infamy" has been shown to be factually wrong. He states for example, that P-40s could have escorted B-17s from Manila to Formosa. Wrong. He also claims 17 B-17s with 34 tons of bombs could've CHANGED THE WAR.

LOL!

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by Sid Guttridge » 20 Oct 2021 23:46

Hi rcocean,

Max Hastings is anything but "left wing". He was editor of the Daily Telegraph, which has been described as the house magazine of the Conservative Party. You could hardly be more wrong! Where did you get this ridiculous idea from? It needs following up to source.

Costello is not English. He was Scottish, of Irish extraction.

I don't know Costello's book, but given how far off the mark you are with Hastings, I think you had better provide full references for what you claim Costello wrote in the two instances to which you refer, so we can check them as well.

Cheers,

Sid.

yantaylor
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by yantaylor » 22 Oct 2021 21:03

I think he may have meant the Britons, not the Britains, like the French people in Brittany, they used to be known as the Britons, right?

Ian

Linkagain
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by Linkagain » 25 Oct 2021 03:21

Well do the Math the order of Battle for Both sides....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of ... _of_battle

even with Katusa {Korean war forces} US/UN forces were about 5 divisions...
The Chinese had 5 armies of 15 Divisions of 3 regiments per division (a ratio of 3 to 1 superiority)

Interestingly both sides estaimes of the the other sides loses
Chinese estimate of 13,900 vs US loses of 17,843 (Chinese Underestimated by 4%)
UN estimated Chinese loses as 49,800 vs Chinese loses of 48,158 (UN Overestimated by 10%)

One of the Great Failures of the truman Administration 1946-1950 was it poor job of cutting back US Military forces--as an example while officers and NCO who stayed in the service were experienced World War II Veterans...the other ranks were quite handicaped...in the US Army race segregation was still practived...in two regiments...placing someone in a "Colored: regiment base on skin color and not on abilty...that the US force in Japan was more a Constubulary/occupation force...more interested of keeping the peace instead of practacing basic training....Even in the USMC recruits could enlisted in the USMC Reserves..which ment showing up for the weekend in Uniform....instead of the toughing up of 5-9 months basic training they shoudl have had.....allegedly some units were so "raw" they didnt even know how to fire a rifle ....it would have been laughable,,,,it made Dad's Army look like an elite Guard Regiment....2.6 Bazooka was great at knocking out pillboxes...but not T-34 tanks....the larger 3. Bazooke did arrive until later.... :roll: :roll:

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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 08 Nov 2021 12:13

rcocean wrote:
20 Oct 2021 20:53
Its been pointed out a million times that Left-wing English authors like Costello and Hastings are anti-American and completely unreliable when it comes to the US military effort in WW2 and Korea. Costello's book "Days of Infamy" has been shown to be factually wrong. He states for example, that P-40s could have escorted B-17s from Manila to Formosa. Wrong. He also claims 17 B-17s with 34 tons of bombs could've CHANGED THE WAR.

LOL!
You think those two revisionists are left-wing ? And a guy who obviously despised that Commie Roosevelt Boy, you're F'ed in the head.

Linkagain
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Re: Douglas MacArthur was no Caesar

Post by Linkagain » 20 Nov 2021 20:48

McArthur actions after Inchon....doomed any chance for a short war....he had 2 choices:
1) Send the Marines cross country to the eastern of Korea..link with Walter Walker forces to cut off the enemies retreat then liberte Seoul
2) Send the USMC all the way around to the east coast of Korea.....and establish a beachead there....

he choose option #2 with the following results...
1} The port in question had aready been liberated by south Koreans
2) the vast majority of North Koreans escaped northward.....

By his actions :wink: :lol: :P he snatched defeat from victory.....

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