High Japanese death rate in Pacific island battles

Discussions on WW2 in the Pacific and the Sino-Japanese War.
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R Leonard
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Re: High Japanese death rate in Pacific island battles

Post by R Leonard » 30 Mar 2021 13:21

Must be getting old(er). Had to look up SJW, I had no idea. Sounds like what we used to call self-centered gadflies.

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Re: High Japanese death rate in Pacific island battles

Post by Cult Icon » 30 Mar 2021 14:08

rcocean wrote:
29 Mar 2021 21:08
This is the sort of question that makes me wonder if anyone reads history anymore. The Japanese no surrender doctrine was long standing.
Your Allied-biased rhetoric doesn't however, address the topic- of Allied troops shooting Japanese that put their hands up.

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Re: High Japanese death rate in Pacific island battles

Post by Cult Icon » 30 Mar 2021 14:16

Takao wrote:
21 Mar 2021 21:20
They are readily available on the internet, all it takes is a Google Search.
What would help would be analytical studies on the Japanese historians/units themselves as to inform a certain generalization. Rather than inventing arguments/selecting arguments/accounts that reinforce Allied bias.

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Takao
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Re: High Japanese death rate in Pacific island battles

Post by Takao » 30 Mar 2021 14:54

Cult Icon wrote:
30 Mar 2021 14:16
Takao wrote:
21 Mar 2021 21:20
They are readily available on the internet, all it takes is a Google Search.
What would help would be analytical studies on the Japanese historians/units themselves as to inform a certain generalization. Rather than inventing arguments/selecting arguments/accounts that reinforce Allied bias.
Curious...How do you propose to "get inside the head" of a Japanese soldier to figure out if he was fighting to the end or murdered in cold blood, if you do not consult their diaries? Shall we begin by holding seances?

Also curious...Considering that you are inventing arguments/selecting arguments/accounts that reinforce Japanese bias.
What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

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Re: High Japanese death rate in Pacific island battles

Post by Cult Icon » 30 Mar 2021 15:10

A nonsense response by you, consider it ignored. The responses in the past two pages are just arguments trying to excuse/mitigate the issue that Allied troops shot Japanese prisoners..!

Rhetorical exercises with emotional appeals are the cheapest sort of thing.

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Takao
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Re: High Japanese death rate in Pacific island battles

Post by Takao » 30 Mar 2021 18:58

Cult Icon wrote:
30 Mar 2021 15:10
A nonsense response by you, consider it ignored.
Sigh...Then lets see your evidence that hundreds of thousands of Japanese were shot in the act of surrendering them or while as prisoners...
You can start here...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cowra_breakout

Cult Icon wrote:
30 Mar 2021 15:10
The responses in the past two pages are just arguments trying to excuse/mitigate the issue that Allied troops shot Japanese prisoners..!
Nope, I never denied it...Talked to to many Marines WW2 veterans. I did happen on occasion, and was rather justifiable.
I do question that hundreds of thousands of Japanese were shot while surrendering or while prisoners.
Cult Icon wrote:
30 Mar 2021 15:10
Rhetorical exercises with emotional appeals are the cheapest sort of thing.
Garbage in, garbage out.
Again, let us see your proof.

rcocean
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Re: High Japanese death rate in Pacific island battles

Post by rcocean » 31 Mar 2021 18:04

You need to understand several things:

1) the vast majority of POW's taken in ww2, were taken when the officers/NCO decided to surrender their organized units. The japanese never did this. Or rarely did this.
2) There's no international law requiring a solider to take an enemy soldier prisoner. The fact that you put up your hands in combat and yell "Comrade" doesn't mean the enemy can't refuse to accept your surrender and shoot you. Or if you see a pile of Enemy bodies on the ground, you can sort through them see if they are wounded and take them POW. Or, you can just shoot them all to make sure they're dead. Both courses are OK under international law. However, once you ACCEPT an enemies surrender, they are covered by international law and the Geneva Convention.

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Re: High Japanese death rate in Pacific island battles

Post by rcocean » 31 Mar 2021 18:07

The Japanese would often fake a surrender, or blow themselves up with a medic came to treat them. Needless to say, you can't do that many times, before the Allied Soldiers just shot them out of hand. As stated, the US Marines and Army took plenty of Japanese POW's, over 10,000 on Okinawa. They would've loved to have taken more, since every POW, meant one less enemy soldier that had to be fought and killed.

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Re: High Japanese death rate in Pacific island battles

Post by rcocean » 31 Mar 2021 18:09

I posted the following; post #6 of this thread:

Well, I assumed this was the typical Axis thread, given #42. Should have read from the first, instead of #42 backwards.

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Re: High Japanese death rate in Pacific island battles

Post by Cult Icon » 01 Apr 2021 13:28

What we need are statistics, analysis and Japanese sources.. not opinion! More depth and detail..

For instance, a study that estimates how many Japanese troops were killed after surrender and evidence of Allied war crimes.

I started a thread on similar topics about Japanese military culture- hoping that there are people who can READ JAPANESE and know Japanese sources that can provide some tips. Nobody responded.
Last edited by Cult Icon on 01 Apr 2021 14:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: High Japanese death rate in Pacific island battles

Post by Cult Icon » 01 Apr 2021 13:43

rcocean wrote:
31 Mar 2021 18:09
I posted the following; post #6 of this thread:

Well, I assumed this was the typical Axis thread, given #42. Should have read from the first, instead of #42 backwards.
Yep, it's not. I mentioned sources related to this topic that illuminated aspects of it. The Japanese were not the Orcs from Lord of the Rings and ethical morons. The subject is a much more complex one than the projections made in this thread so far.


Zen at War
Zen War Stories


These two books about Japanese military and its connection to religion were researched from Japanese sources. It demonstrates how religion and ethics were twisted in order to promote Japanese imperial interests and the relation between the Buddhist monastics & their support of the military. Dharma talks, meditative practice, religious instruction- cultivating combat morale and spiritual preparation for their death.

Per Japanese war crimes, Zen at War has discussion about the logic of unrepentant Japanese war criminals professing their views on the worth of their crimes. These were inseparable from Shinto and Zen influence.

Zen's role in promoting fanatical fighting soldiers was not even a Japanese invention. It was practiced in ancient China as to way to indoctrinate effective fighting men, and spread to Japan.

Others:

Hagakure : Popular ethical text for Japanese soldiers
Bushido: The Soul of Japan
Bushido and Zen
War without Mercy

rcocean
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Re: High Japanese death rate in Pacific island battles

Post by rcocean » 02 Apr 2021 15:32

For instance, a study that estimates how many Japanese troops were killed after surrender and evidence of Allied war crimes.
You don't seem to understand that under WW2 international law, individual marines refusing an offer of surrender in COMBAT is NOT a war crime. You are not a PRISONER until the enemy ACCEPTS your surrender. And BTW it is ALSO not a "War crime" to let enemy sailors drown, there is no obligation under international law to steam over where you sunk a warship and pick up any survivors.

There is no evidence of Marines/GI"s killing Japanese AFTER there surrender was accepted. Not that I'm aware of. There were GI's convicted of killing German/Italian POW's in Europe. There were at least two cases, one under Patton, where a GI guard mowed down 20-50 Axis POW's while escorting them back to the rear.

We took over 10,000 Japanese/Okinawan POW's in April-June 1945 (consult the US Army History the last battle). We took over 15,000 in the Philippines (Consultant Triumph in the Philippines us army history). How many did the British take in Burma? I dunno, maybe someone could say.

Estimates of how many Japanese wanted to surrender or tried to surrender but were shot down in combat, can never be estimated accurately. How many Germans were killed in the same way? How many Americans were killed in the same way? We'll never know. It is irrelevant.

rcocean
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Re: High Japanese death rate in Pacific island battles

Post by rcocean » 02 Apr 2021 15:37

I'm not rending an "Opinion" - I'm stating historical fact. Japanese officers did not surrender their combat units - until ordered by the Emperor. Period. Japanese soldiers who tried to surrender were shot at by other Japanese. That is a fact. Not an "Opinion". Wainwright, Percival, and King surrendered tens of thousands of men under their commands. No Japanese General ever did this. They committed suicide or tried to escape rather than surrender. we did take ONE Japanese Colonel prisoner on Okinawa, but that was only because he was disguised as an Okinawan and was attempting to get back to Japan with intelligence on American fighting methods.

I'm too sure what more can be said.

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Re: High Japanese death rate in Pacific island battles

Post by daveshoup2MD » 03 Apr 2021 03:47

rcocean wrote:
31 Mar 2021 18:09
I posted the following; post #6 of this thread:

Well, I assumed this was the typical Axis thread, given #42. Should have read from the first, instead of #42 backwards.
I posted the following; post #6 of this thread:

Doyle, Robert C. (2010). The Enemy in Our Hands: America's Treatment of Enemy Prisoners of War, from the Revolution to the War on Terror
https://www.kentuckypress.com/978081312 ... our-hands/

Gilmore, Allison B. (1998). You can't fight tanks with bayonets: psychological warfare against the Japanese Army in the Southwest Pacific
https://www.nebraskapress.unl.edu/bison ... 803270893/

Straus, Ulrich (2003). The Anguish of Surrender: Japanese POWs of World War II
https://uwapress.uw.edu/book/9780295996 ... surrender/

As you say, be interesting if someone read them...

Yes, the initial few posts kind of gave it away, but I tried.

And will do so again.

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Re: High Japanese death rate in Pacific island battles

Post by Delta Tank » 03 Apr 2021 04:07

[/quote]
Thanks. I'm sure there were many fanatical Japanese soldiers who fought to the death and committed suicide rather than surrender. I just have a hard time believing that all of the Japanese did this. Most battlefield casualties are wounded. How does a wounded man kill himself? Did the Japanese have a dedicated "honor force" that murdered its own wounded so they wouldn't be captured? How were they able to kill every last one of their soldiers before the U.S. marines arrived to take them prisoner?

I will check out War Without Mercy. Sounds like it's exactly what I'm looking for.
[/quote]

So, you get a shell fragment in your foot, you are now incapable of fighting? How many soldiers were wounded and continued to fight? How many soldiers were wounded, given first aid and continued to fight? How many soldiers were wounded, evacuated to the battalion aid station and returned to duty?

I am sure those statistics exist.

Mike

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