IJN subs: bad luck or bad doctrine

Discussions on WW2 in the Pacific and the Sino-Japanese War.
Eugen Pinak
Member
Posts: 951
Joined: 16 Jun 2004 16:09
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine

Re: IJN subs: bad luck or bad doctrine

Post by Eugen Pinak » 24 Apr 2020 12:48

Kingfish wrote:
24 Apr 2020 09:36
Eugen Pinak wrote:
22 Apr 2020 21:59

What - no more wise advises to IJN submariners? :)
Yes, I would advise them to ignore the routes into and out of Ironbottom sound and instead concentrate their boats in the straits of Florida, where the "regular convoys" are.
So, no Port Moresby already. Good.

As for "concentrate their boats in the straits of Florida" advise - I'm afraid, it will be really hard for the IJN to do it. After all, Straits of Florida located to the south of US state of Florida - a bit far from the nearest Japanese base :lol:

User avatar
Kingfish
Member
Posts: 2882
Joined: 05 Jun 2003 16:22
Location: USA

Re: IJN subs: bad luck or bad doctrine

Post by Kingfish » 25 Apr 2020 00:29

Eugen Pinak wrote:
24 Apr 2020 12:48
So, no Port Moresby already. Good.
Nah, why bother with trying to stop the flow of men and material into the only allied base in Papua New Guinea?
The gods do not deduct from a man's allotted span the hours spent in fishing.
~Babylonian Proverb

paulrward
Member
Posts: 410
Joined: 10 Dec 2008 20:14

Re: IJN subs: bad luck or bad doctrine

Post by paulrward » 25 Apr 2020 03:40

Hello All :

Mr. Eugen Pinak stated :
As for "concentrate their boats in the straits of Florida" advise - I'm afraid, it will be really
hard for the IJN to do it. After all, Straits of Florida located to the south of US state of Florida -
a bit far from the nearest Japanese base :lol:
Just to the north of the island of Guadalcanal are the twin islands that today are known as
Nggela and Lagale. In the narrow strait between these two islands and Guadalcanal are
the rather tiny outcrops of rock that are known today as the Nugu Islets. Now, during
WW2, Nggela and Lagale were known collectively as ' Florida Island ', and the two passages
to the north of the Nugu Islets were referred to as Sealark Channel, while the passage to
the north of Florida Island was named the ' Indispensible Strait ' . HOWEVER : There are
many older maps that list the Sealark Channel as the ' Florida Straits ', and divide it into
the ' North Passage of the Florida Strait ' and the ' South Passage of the Florida Strait ', depending
on whether you went to the north or the south of the Nugu Islets.

The study of old maps can yield many surprises....


If the Japanese had concentrated their submarines on the eastern end of Guadalcanal, at the
juncture of the Indispensible Strait and the Florida Straits, they would have had much better
pickings attacking the USN convoys heading towards Ironbottom Sound to resupply the Marines
on Guadalcanal. Of course, the waters are shallow in places, with lots of uncharted coral reefs
and some rather nasty currents that would have made the lives of the IJN submariners unpleasant,
but, if the game were worth the candle, that would have been the place to go hunting.


Respectfully :

Paul R. Ward
Information not shared, is information lost
Voices banned, are voices who cannot share information....

Eugen Pinak
Member
Posts: 951
Joined: 16 Jun 2004 16:09
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine

Re: IJN subs: bad luck or bad doctrine

Post by Eugen Pinak » 25 Apr 2020 13:50

paulrward wrote:
25 Apr 2020 03:40
HOWEVER : There are
many older maps that list the Sealark Channel as the ' Florida Straits ', and divide it into
the ' North Passage of the Florida Strait ' and the ' South Passage of the Florida Strait ', depending
on whether you went to the north or the south of the Nugu Islets.
Can you provide an example? Yet to see an old map of Guadalcanal area with a name like this.

Eugen Pinak
Member
Posts: 951
Joined: 16 Jun 2004 16:09
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine

Re: IJN subs: bad luck or bad doctrine

Post by Eugen Pinak » 25 Apr 2020 13:51

paulrward wrote:
25 Apr 2020 03:40
If the Japanese had concentrated their submarines on the eastern end of Guadalcanal, at the
juncture of the Indispensible Strait and the Florida Straits, they would have had much better
pickings attacking the USN convoys heading towards Ironbottom Sound to resupply the Marines
on Guadalcanal. Of course, the waters are shallow in places, with lots of uncharted coral reefs
and some rather nasty currents that would have made the lives of the IJN submariners unpleasant,

but, if the game were worth the candle, that would have been the place to go hunting.
Thank's why IJN submariners used better position to intercept US convoys.

paulrward
Member
Posts: 410
Joined: 10 Dec 2008 20:14

Re: IJN subs: bad luck or bad doctrine

Post by paulrward » 25 Apr 2020 19:40

Hello All :

to Mr. Eugen Pinak :
Can you provide an example? Yet to see an old map of Guadalcanal area
with a name like this.
The Solomon Islands were first charted in 1568 by the Spanish navigator Álvaro de Mendaña, who was
the first European to visit them, naming them the Islas Salomón. It was at this time that the islands
of Guadalcanal and Florida aquired their Spanish Names, along with the name of the waters directly
south of Florida Island, which was named ' Estrecho de Florida '. These names persisted in use for
the next three centuries.

Britain defined its area of interest in the Solomon Islands archipelago in 1893, when Captain Gibson R.N.,
of HMS Curacoa, declared the southern Solomon Islands a British protectorate.

In 1903, the steam yacht Consuelo was purchased by the Admiralty and initially commissioned as
HMS Investigator. In 1904 after refitting as a survey vessel, at a cost of £20,000, she was renamed
HMS Sealark and sailed from Portsmouth in September 1904 to serve on the China Station. In 1910,
HMS Sealark sailed from Penang for the Australia Station. She undertook various hydrographic surveys
around Australia and the South Pacific between 1910 and 1914.

Thus, Mr. Pinak, the straits to the south of Florida Island could NOT have been referred to as the Sealark
Channel prior to 1910, as there had been no ship called Sealark ANYWHERE in the vicinity, and, when the
Royal Navy ship Sealark surveyed the Solomons in the period immediately prior to the First World War,
and sailed through the Florida Straits, ( also referred to as the Paso de Florida ) the British chose to rename,
and subsequently mark all Admiralty Charts, with the name ' Sealark Channel ' .


Now, Mr. Pinak, almost all of the older charts you can find will be British Admiralty Charts. However, they
were NOT the ONLY charts in use between 1600 and 1900, and just because the British chose to hang the
name of some Duke's mistress on an island or bay does NOT mean that was the correct name. With each
passing year, ridiculous names such as New Guinea, New Ireland, and Rhodesia are disappearing from the
maps of the world, to be replaced with Papua, Latangai. and Zimbabwe.

Respectfully :

Paul R. Ward
Information not shared, is information lost
Voices banned, are voices who cannot share information....

Eugen Pinak
Member
Posts: 951
Joined: 16 Jun 2004 16:09
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine

Re: IJN subs: bad luck or bad doctrine

Post by Eugen Pinak » 25 Apr 2020 23:02

paulrward wrote:
25 Apr 2020 19:40
Hello All :

to Mr. Eugen Pinak :
Can you provide an example? Yet to see an old map of Guadalcanal area
with a name like this.
The Solomon Islands were first charted in 1568 by the Spanish navigator Álvaro de Mendaña,...
I see - so you can't provide an example :)

User avatar
Takao
Member
Posts: 3019
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 19:27
Location: Reading, Pa

Re: IJN subs: bad luck or bad doctrine

Post by Takao » 25 Apr 2020 23:29

Eugen Pinak wrote:
25 Apr 2020 23:02
paulrward wrote:
25 Apr 2020 19:40
Hello All :

to Mr. Eugen Pinak :
Can you provide an example? Yet to see an old map of Guadalcanal area
with a name like this.
The Solomon Islands were first charted in 1568 by the Spanish navigator Álvaro de Mendaña,...
I see - so you can't provide an example :)
Seriously? Or just bored and trolling?
1943 USN map
https://library.ucsd.edu/dc/object/bb46769935

User avatar
Takao
Member
Posts: 3019
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 19:27
Location: Reading, Pa

Re: IJN subs: bad luck or bad doctrine

Post by Takao » 25 Apr 2020 23:35


Eugen Pinak
Member
Posts: 951
Joined: 16 Jun 2004 16:09
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine

Re: IJN subs: bad luck or bad doctrine

Post by Eugen Pinak » 27 Apr 2020 17:03

Takao wrote:
25 Apr 2020 23:29
Eugen Pinak wrote:
25 Apr 2020 23:02
paulrward wrote:
25 Apr 2020 19:40
Hello All :

to Mr. Eugen Pinak :
Can you provide an example? Yet to see an old map of Guadalcanal area
with a name like this.
The Solomon Islands were first charted in 1568 by the Spanish navigator Álvaro de Mendaña,...
I see - so you can't provide an example :)
Seriously? Or just bored and trolling?
1943 USN map
https://library.ucsd.edu/dc/object/bb46769935
Care to point out, where I can find "Florida Straits" on this map???

Eugen Pinak
Member
Posts: 951
Joined: 16 Jun 2004 16:09
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine

Re: IJN subs: bad luck or bad doctrine

Post by Eugen Pinak » 27 Apr 2020 17:04

Takao wrote:
25 Apr 2020 23:35
1915 USN map
https://library.ucsd.edu/dc/object/bb90114995
Also - thank you for the link. A lot of interesting maps there.

paulrward
Member
Posts: 410
Joined: 10 Dec 2008 20:14

Re: IJN subs: bad luck or bad doctrine

Post by paulrward » 27 Apr 2020 21:28

Hello All :
Takao wrote: ↑25 Apr 2020 15:35
1915 USN map
https://library.ucsd.edu/dc/object/bb90114995
A very interesting Map. Which, if you look closely, is based on the British Surveys up to 1912. Which
were carried out by the HMS Sealark. Which means that, prior to the Sealark Survey, the Florida Straits
were NOT known as the Sealark Channel.

A close look at this map will also show that the area of water to the east of Savo Island is NOT labeled
' IronBottom Sound ' for some strange reason. I suppose, Mr. Takao, you are going to maintain that
it has ALWAYS been known by that name ? Of course not. In fact, prior to WW2, is was often referred
to as ' The Savo Sound '.

Now, Mr. Takao, why don't you hunt up a map from the years between 1750 and 1850, and see what the
stretch of water south of Florida Island is called. I will give you a hint: it ISN'T Sealark Channel....


Respectfully :

Paul R. Ward
Information not shared, is information lost
Voices banned, are voices who cannot share information....

User avatar
Takao
Member
Posts: 3019
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 19:27
Location: Reading, Pa

Re: IJN subs: bad luck or bad doctrine

Post by Takao » 28 Apr 2020 12:16

Eugen Pinak wrote:
27 Apr 2020 17:04
Takao wrote:
25 Apr 2020 23:35
1915 USN map
https://library.ucsd.edu/dc/object/bb90114995
Also - thank you for the link. A lot of interesting maps there.
It's my Go To online map resource.

User avatar
Takao
Member
Posts: 3019
Joined: 10 Mar 2002 19:27
Location: Reading, Pa

Re: IJN subs: bad luck or bad doctrine

Post by Takao » 28 Apr 2020 12:26

paulrward wrote:
27 Apr 2020 21:28
Hello All :
Takao wrote: ↑25 Apr 2020 15:35
1915 USN map
https://library.ucsd.edu/dc/object/bb90114995
A very interesting Map. Which, if you look closely, is based on the British Surveys up to 1912. Which
were carried out by the HMS Sealark. Which means that, prior to the Sealark Survey, the Florida Straits
were NOT known as the Sealark Channel.

A close look at this map will also show that the area of water to the east of Savo Island is NOT labeled
' IronBottom Sound ' for some strange reason. I suppose, Mr. Takao, you are going to maintain that
it has ALWAYS been known by that name ? Of course not. In fact, prior to WW2, is was often referred
to as ' The Savo Sound '.

Now, Mr. Takao, why don't you hunt up a map from the years between 1750 and 1850, and see what the
stretch of water south of Florida Island is called. I will give you a hint: it ISN'T Sealark Channel....


Respectfully :

Paul R. Ward
Why?

WW2 was not fought 1841-1845...Was it.

I provided a 1915 USN map for perusal.

However, if you can find a Japanese nautical map of the are, it would be appreciated. I have been looking for one online & have not found any.

Fatboy Coxy
Member
Posts: 652
Joined: 26 Jul 2009 16:14
Location: Essex, UK

Re: IJN subs: bad luck or bad doctrine

Post by Fatboy Coxy » 28 Apr 2020 14:03

At the start of the invasion of Malaya, the Japanese Navy placed two picket lines of submarines down the eastern coast of Malaya. These ships were in radio contact with the flotilla leaders, light cruisers, cruising (what else does a light cruiser do) off the tip of Indo-china. They were looking out for Force Z, report in sightings, and if you had a chance, take a shot.

This was part of a combined IJN operation, along with the redeployment of the G3M ‘Nell’ and G4M ‘Betty’ long range torpedo bombers, and the close and distant escort groups, defending the invasion force. An additional two IJN submarines were sent to mine the eastern entrance to the Singapore Straits.

In this aspect the Japanese submarines were tied into a greater doctrinal approach to warfare, and not given a ‘free hand’

Return to “WW2 in the Pacific & Asia”