Franz Lehár in bosnisch-herzegowinischen Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 3

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ffbikersar
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Franz Lehár in bosnisch-herzegowinischen Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 3

Post by ffbikersar » 11 Jun 2021 15:55

The famous composer Franz Lehár served as Kapellmeister in several army units, and for one year in bosnisch-herzegowinischen Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 3:

https://www.geschichtewiki.wien.gv.at/F ... out=mobile

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Re: Franz Lehár in bosnisch-herzegowinischen Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 3

Post by Peter89 » 11 Jun 2021 21:04

Just a quick note: his name was Léhár Ferenc.
“And while I am talking to you, mothers and fathers, I give you one more assurance. I have said this before, but I shall say it again, and again and again. Your boys are not going to be sent into any foreign wars." - FDR, October 1940

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Re: Franz Lehár in bosnisch-herzegowinischen Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 3

Post by ffbikersar » 12 Jun 2021 06:10

Hungarian way of writing the name - for the rest of world he's Franz Lehár. i doubt there are many CDs or LPs with his works, bearing Léhár Ferenc name?

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Re: Franz Lehár in bosnisch-herzegowinischen Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 3

Post by Peter89 » 14 Jun 2021 12:56

ffbikersar wrote:
12 Jun 2021 06:10
Hungarian way of writing the name - for the rest of world he's Franz Lehár. i doubt there are many CDs or LPs with his works, bearing Léhár Ferenc name?
Yeah it's not about the national name-writing. We call Yamamoto Isoroku as Isoroku Yamamoto, and we can call Léhár Ferenc in English environment as Ferenc Léhár.

But if someone's name is Ferenc, you don't "englify" or "germanify" it to Franz. It's incorrect and disrespectful.

The same way we don't call George Washington as Georg Washington, Grigorij Washington or György Washington. That wasn't his name.
“And while I am talking to you, mothers and fathers, I give you one more assurance. I have said this before, but I shall say it again, and again and again. Your boys are not going to be sent into any foreign wars." - FDR, October 1940

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Waleed Y. Majeed
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Re: Franz Lehár in bosnisch-herzegowinischen Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 3

Post by Waleed Y. Majeed » 14 Jun 2021 17:09

I doubt Washington would have accepted it, contrary to what Franz or Ferenc seems to have done. If he objected I doubt he would be a wikipedia “Franz” in just about all other languages but Hungarian. And why is his father Franz Lehar Sr. (Senior) even on the hungarian version of wiki?
I know wiki is not the most trustworthy but still interesting questions pop up when looking through the various versions and having in mind Franz never got the chance to look through wiki, I checked other sources too. Many newspaper clips from around the world mention him as “Franz”. And that’s in his lifetime. Sticking to your point of using names/nationalities would undoubtfully put us all to shame when naming the old greek/roman gods, the faraoes, the greek philosophers, nordic gods, Karl I/IV Károly/Charles I etc. etc.

Waleed

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Re: Franz Lehár in bosnisch-herzegowinischen Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 3

Post by Peter89 » 15 Jun 2021 08:22

Waleed Y. Majeed wrote:
14 Jun 2021 17:09
I doubt Washington would have accepted it, contrary to what Franz or Ferenc seems to have done. If he objected I doubt he would be a wikipedia “Franz” in just about all other languages but Hungarian. And why is his father Franz Lehar Sr. (Senior) even on the hungarian version of wiki?
I know wiki is not the most trustworthy but still interesting questions pop up when looking through the various versions and having in mind Franz never got the chance to look through wiki, I checked other sources too. Many newspaper clips from around the world mention him as “Franz”. And that’s in his lifetime. Sticking to your point of using names/nationalities would undoubtfully put us all to shame when naming the old greek/roman gods, the faraoes, the greek philosophers, nordic gods, Karl I/IV Károly/Charles I etc. etc.

Waleed
Hello Waleed,

to be honest, I don't think it's a respectful policy to englify (for example) ä to ae, Ł to L or é to e.

And given that the past 100 years has been spent with millions of Hungarians renamed from their birth name to an international or locally dominant name (Gyula -> Julius, Ferenc -> Franz, Gábor -> Gabriel, László -> Ladislav, Kovácsné -> Kovácová, etc.), I think it is not much to ask on a historical forum to call the historical persons by their actual birth name. You are right, of course, that Mr. Léhár culturally belonged to the Empire and not to its Hungarian part exclusively, thus calling him Franz would probably not hurt his feelings, but calling him Franz disguises his national affiliation. Would it be a singular exception, I wouldn't really care - but the systematic extermination of Hungarian names from history is really a bad trend in my opinion.
“And while I am talking to you, mothers and fathers, I give you one more assurance. I have said this before, but I shall say it again, and again and again. Your boys are not going to be sent into any foreign wars." - FDR, October 1940

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Re: Franz Lehár in bosnisch-herzegowinischen Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 3

Post by ffbikersar » 15 Jun 2021 09:31

I never saw Count Gyula Andrássy ANYWHERE being called Julius Andrassy or Sándor Petőfi anything else - the only this which is being done is changing the order in which first and family name are written, as you in Hungary put the family name first, and first name as second (Léhár Ferenc instead of Ferenc Léhár - the order used in English or German).

Franz Léhár is the name by which this composer is commonly known by rest of the world outside Hungary - mention "Ferenc Léhár" or "Léhár Ferenc" to most music lovers in other countries and ask them if they know who he is. They would in most case either say "I don't know", or "some cousin of Franz Léhár"?

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Re: Franz Lehár in bosnisch-herzegowinischen Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 3

Post by Peter89 » 15 Jun 2021 19:36

ffbikersar wrote:
15 Jun 2021 09:31
I never saw Count Gyula Andrássy ANYWHERE being called Julius Andrassy or Sándor Petőfi anything else - the only this which is being done is changing the order in which first and family name are written,
It's the same as in the Far East, so nothing unique.
ffbikersar wrote:
15 Jun 2021 09:31
as you in Hungary put the family name first, and first name as second
I'm not in Hungary and I don't care specially about the people there.
ffbikersar wrote:
15 Jun 2021 09:31
Franz Léhár is the name by which this composer is commonly known by rest of the world outside Hungary - mention "Ferenc Léhár" or "Léhár Ferenc" to most music lovers in other countries and ask them if they know who he is.
My problem exactly.
ffbikersar wrote:
15 Jun 2021 09:31
They would in most case either say "I don't know", or "some cousin of Franz Léhár"?
I acknowledge your POV.
But this is something that has to be changed.

Just because the Hungarian language is so different from the Indoeuropean languages, it doesn't mean that it should be altered in order to make pronunciation more easy, and thus facilitate the falsification of national affiliation of some historically relevant persons and their names.

Please imagine a reality where your name on official papers corresponds to your ethnic oppression.
“And while I am talking to you, mothers and fathers, I give you one more assurance. I have said this before, but I shall say it again, and again and again. Your boys are not going to be sent into any foreign wars." - FDR, October 1940

ffbikersar
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Re: Franz Lehár in bosnisch-herzegowinischen Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 3

Post by ffbikersar » 16 Jun 2021 05:59

So the other ought to write - and that would correct the historic injustice - "known commonly as Franz Léhár (Léhár Ferenc in his mother tongue, Hungarian)".

Croats or Slovenes or Bosnians, who also belonged to the K.u.K.-Empire, also had their names germanised (or hungarised) in official correspondence, Josip becoming Josef, Karlo becoming Karl (or Károly), also as a part of assimilation processes

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Re: Franz Lehár in bosnisch-herzegowinischen Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 3

Post by Peter89 » 16 Jun 2021 09:11

ffbikersar wrote:
16 Jun 2021 05:59
So the other ought to write - and that would correct the historic injustice - "known commonly as Franz Léhár (Léhár Ferenc in his mother tongue, Hungarian)".
Ferenc Léhár is enough.
ffbikersar wrote:
16 Jun 2021 05:59
Croats or Slovenes or Bosnians, who also belonged to the K.u.K.-Empire, also had their names germanised (or hungarised) in official correspondence, Josip becoming Josef, Karlo becoming Karl (or Károly), also as a part of assimilation processes
Exactly, this is the problem I was talking about.
“And while I am talking to you, mothers and fathers, I give you one more assurance. I have said this before, but I shall say it again, and again and again. Your boys are not going to be sent into any foreign wars." - FDR, October 1940

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