Best time for federalization.

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Nodeo-Franvier
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Best time for federalization.

Post by Nodeo-Franvier » 30 Dec 2020 05:27

When do you think is the best time to turn Austrian empire in to a federation?
In 1867,count Hohenwart attempt in 1871 or some other times?

Peter89
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Re: Best time for federalization.

Post by Peter89 » 30 Dec 2020 18:48

1848 or 1849, definately!
“And while I am talking to you, mothers and fathers, I give you one more assurance. I have said this before, but I shall say it again, and again and again. Your boys are not going to be sent into any foreign wars." - FDR, October 1940

Nodeo-Franvier
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Re: Best time for federalization.

Post by Nodeo-Franvier » 30 Dec 2020 23:06

Peter89 wrote:
30 Dec 2020 18:48
1848 or 1849, definately!
That true after the revolution both the Magyar and the Italians were subdued. Prince Felix,Metternich,Hannah and Radetzky was also still around to help.

Peter89
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Re: Best time for federalization.

Post by Peter89 » 31 Dec 2020 00:38

I was thinking rather the contrary. The revolutions carried the political energy and will to institutionalize liberal advancements. There were three revolutions in Vienna, too. Even Kossuth proposed a confederation shortly after the war. Had there been sufficient foresight and prudence, the Empire would have a new start on a liberal and federal path.
“And while I am talking to you, mothers and fathers, I give you one more assurance. I have said this before, but I shall say it again, and again and again. Your boys are not going to be sent into any foreign wars." - FDR, October 1940

Nodeo-Franvier
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Re: Best time for federalization.

Post by Nodeo-Franvier » 31 Dec 2020 15:10

Peter89 wrote:
31 Dec 2020 00:38
I was thinking rather the contrary. The revolutions carried the political energy and will to institutionalize liberal advancements. There were three revolutions in Vienna, too. Even Kossuth proposed a confederation shortly after the war. Had there been sufficient foresight and prudence, the Empire would have a new start on a liberal and federal path.
I think the imperial regime greatest mistake of the revolution is not granting amnesty to soldiers and officers who wish to come back,that would weaken the revolution significantly and repair the breech within the army.
And any compromise with Kossuth would be unlikely since that guy demand independent hungary joined by only the person of the emperor.
In my opinion the emperor should gathers the representative of each nationalities such as František Palacký and let them write a federal constitution under the supervision of Metternich or prince Felix(I don't know whether the poles,Ukrainian and Ruthenian can come to an agreement)

Peter89
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Re: Best time for federalization.

Post by Peter89 » 01 Jan 2021 09:34

Nodeo-Franvier wrote:
31 Dec 2020 15:10
Peter89 wrote:
31 Dec 2020 00:38
I was thinking rather the contrary. The revolutions carried the political energy and will to institutionalize liberal advancements. There were three revolutions in Vienna, too. Even Kossuth proposed a confederation shortly after the war. Had there been sufficient foresight and prudence, the Empire would have a new start on a liberal and federal path.
I think the imperial regime greatest mistake of the revolution is not granting amnesty to soldiers and officers who wish to come back,that would weaken the revolution significantly and repair the breech within the army.
Which revolution are you talking about?

There was a revolution in Prague, Vienna, Pest and Northern Italy. Also, Vienna had 3 revolutions, etc.
Nodeo-Franvier wrote:
31 Dec 2020 15:10
And any compromise with Kossuth would be unlikely since that guy demand independent hungary joined by only the person of the emperor.
Kossuth's ideas changed multiple times, and an independent Hungary was only proclaimed on 14 April 1849, well into the war.
Nodeo-Franvier wrote:
31 Dec 2020 15:10
In my opinion the emperor should gathers the representative of each nationalities such as František Palacký and let them write a federal constitution under the supervision of Metternich or prince Felix(I don't know whether the poles,Ukrainian and Ruthenian can come to an agreement)
The Poles fought for Poland in 1831, not for a place in the Empire; the Italians fought for Italy, the Romanians for Romania, the Serbs for Serbia. They all hoped to achieve their national goals in their respective nation states.

The Empire was home of the Austrians, the Hungarians, the Czechs, the Slovaks, the Croats and the Slovenes. The rest would be disappointed by any concessions.
“And while I am talking to you, mothers and fathers, I give you one more assurance. I have said this before, but I shall say it again, and again and again. Your boys are not going to be sent into any foreign wars." - FDR, October 1940

Nodeo-Franvier
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Re: Best time for federalization.

Post by Nodeo-Franvier » 02 Jan 2021 12:19

Peter89 wrote:
01 Jan 2021 09:34
Nodeo-Franvier wrote:
31 Dec 2020 15:10
Peter89 wrote:
31 Dec 2020 00:38
I was thinking rather the contrary. The revolutions carried the political energy and will to institutionalize liberal advancements. There were three revolutions in Vienna, too. Even Kossuth proposed a confederation shortly after the war. Had there been sufficient foresight and prudence, the Empire would have a new start on a liberal and federal path.
I think the imperial regime greatest mistake of the revolution is not granting amnesty to soldiers and officers who wish to come back,that would weaken the revolution significantly and repair the breech within the army.
Which revolution are you talking about?

There was a revolution in Prague, Vienna, Pest and Northern Italy. Also, Vienna had 3 revolutions, etc.
Nodeo-Franvier wrote:
31 Dec 2020 15:10
And any compromise with Kossuth would be unlikely since that guy demand independent hungary joined by only the person of the emperor.
Kossuth's ideas changed multiple times, and an independent Hungary was only proclaimed on 14 April 1849, well into the war.
Nodeo-Franvier wrote:
31 Dec 2020 15:10
In my opinion the emperor should gathers the representative of each nationalities such as and let them write a federal constitution under the supervision of Metternich or prince Felix(I don't know whether the poles,Ukrainian and Ruthenian can come to an agreement)
The Poles fought for Poland in 1831, not for a place in the Empire; the Italians fought for Italy, the Romanians for Romania, the Serbs for Serbia. They all hoped to achieve their national goals in their respective nation states.

The Empire was home of the Austrians, the Hungarians, the Czechs, the Slovaks, the Croats and the Slovenes. The rest would be disappointed by any concessions.
1.Mainly the Hungarian revolution.
2.I thought that Kossuth already want that at the beginning of 1848,when he made an appeal to "our beloved archduke Franz Joseph" but it very true that the demand he made when he was in Government and during full scale war with the Imperial force would be different l.
3.There is always large portions of those people who favor the empire,especially the nobility ,for an example František Palacký who favor Austro-slavism idea these men ask for federal structure themselves.

Peter89
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Re: Best time for federalization.

Post by Peter89 » 06 Jan 2021 19:21

Nodeo-Franvier wrote:
02 Jan 2021 12:19
Peter89 wrote:
01 Jan 2021 09:34
Nodeo-Franvier wrote:
31 Dec 2020 15:10
Peter89 wrote:
31 Dec 2020 00:38
I was thinking rather the contrary. The revolutions carried the political energy and will to institutionalize liberal advancements. There were three revolutions in Vienna, too. Even Kossuth proposed a confederation shortly after the war. Had there been sufficient foresight and prudence, the Empire would have a new start on a liberal and federal path.
I think the imperial regime greatest mistake of the revolution is not granting amnesty to soldiers and officers who wish to come back,that would weaken the revolution significantly and repair the breech within the army.
Which revolution are you talking about?

There was a revolution in Prague, Vienna, Pest and Northern Italy. Also, Vienna had 3 revolutions, etc.
Nodeo-Franvier wrote:
31 Dec 2020 15:10
And any compromise with Kossuth would be unlikely since that guy demand independent hungary joined by only the person of the emperor.
Kossuth's ideas changed multiple times, and an independent Hungary was only proclaimed on 14 April 1849, well into the war.
Nodeo-Franvier wrote:
31 Dec 2020 15:10
In my opinion the emperor should gathers the representative of each nationalities such as and let them write a federal constitution under the supervision of Metternich or prince Felix(I don't know whether the poles,Ukrainian and Ruthenian can come to an agreement)
The Poles fought for Poland in 1831, not for a place in the Empire; the Italians fought for Italy, the Romanians for Romania, the Serbs for Serbia. They all hoped to achieve their national goals in their respective nation states.

The Empire was home of the Austrians, the Hungarians, the Czechs, the Slovaks, the Croats and the Slovenes. The rest would be disappointed by any concessions.
1.Mainly the Hungarian revolution.
2.I thought that Kossuth already want that at the beginning of 1848,when he made an appeal to "our beloved archduke Franz Joseph" but it very true that the demand he made when he was in Government and during full scale war with the Imperial force would be different l.
3.There is always large portions of those people who favor the empire,especially the nobility ,for an example František Palacký who favor Austro-slavism idea these men ask for federal structure themselves.
Kossuth was an opportunist. He wouldn't go to war just because he was in the mood; also what he wanted at the beginning of 1848 was irrelevant - most of the Hungarian elite did not want war.

František Palacký was a Czech. The point is that the Czechs belonged to the Empire - for example, the Serbs or the Poles didn't. The Serbian and Polish nobility wanted to join or establish their respective independent nation states, not fighting for the Empire. The austroslavism was very much like the austrohungarianism or panslavism: doomed ideas from the start.
“And while I am talking to you, mothers and fathers, I give you one more assurance. I have said this before, but I shall say it again, and again and again. Your boys are not going to be sent into any foreign wars." - FDR, October 1940

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