Another ID from my Personal Collection

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bds bill
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Another ID from my Personal Collection

Post by bds bill » 06 Aug 2004 01:49

Here's a look at another of my favorite Ausweise: An SS Führerausweis originally belonging to SS Obergrüppenführer Richard Hildebrandt, at the time this piece was issued Führer des SS Oberabschnitt Weichsel, later head of the SS Race and Resettlement Office 1943-1945. Hildebrandt was the brother of Gauleiter Friedrich Hildebrandt, was convicted at Nuremberg and sentenced to 25 years, then extradited to Poland and executed there in 1953. Many of the Führerausweise issued to high-ranking officers, like this one, do not contain the paste-on stamps usually found on the reverse of SS Ausweise. I would be interested if anyone can shed light on the reason for this. I am very fortunate to have this extremely rare Ausweis in my personal collection. Enjoy! I welcome your comments and responses!


billb
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DanCz
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Post by DanCz » 06 Aug 2004 10:52

Hi Billb,

Another nice piece - - thanks again for sharing. I do have one of these in my own collection and my example has a stamp on the reverse. Anyway - - I do not know the reason why some do and some don't. Perhaps someone could shed a little light here ?

These cards are quite scarce now and will set collectors on this side of the pond back anything between £80-£130 - - - which I think is a lot of money for what you get - - - I guess it is the SS connection !!!

bds bill
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Post by bds bill » 08 Aug 2004 02:48

Hi all,

David Thompson has posted some very good threads in the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes Forum that cover the indictment, prosecution argument, and judgment from the RuSHA War Crimes trial in Nuermberg, in which Richard Hildebrandt was a defendant. They are definitely worth a look and read. Have a great weekend!


billb

JoeW
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Post by JoeW » 08 Aug 2004 15:11

DanCz, would you mind posting a photo of the reverse of the ausweis you have that has the validation stamp. That is what is curious. The small line of text below the stamp square states the Ausweis is not valid without the current stamp affixed. Of course, the date on the Ausweis indicates it was issued during war-time conditions. Perhaps the stamp requirement was discontinued during the war?

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HaEn
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stamp

Post by HaEn » 08 Aug 2004 16:13

If you look close, you will see that it has an "imprint" stamp. Often used to authenticate a document. It is a metal contraption, looking like a paper punch with large dies. One side is the positive, the other the negative, a piece of paper squeezed in between will have the desired mark.
HN

JoeW
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Post by JoeW » 08 Aug 2004 17:27

HaEn, the official seals (or "imprint" stamps as you wrote) on the Ausweis are quite visible. The top one authenticated Himmler's signature. I thought the lower one authenticated the photograph, similar to ink stamps used on other ID documents. But are you saying the lower seal was used in the place of the "paper" validation stamp that is usually found applied to the rectangle on the reverse of the Ausweis?

bds bill
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Post by bds bill » 08 Aug 2004 20:55

The lack of paste-on validation stamps seems to be limited to Ausweise issued to high-ranking SS officers like Hildebrandt. I also have examples of Ausweise for an Unterführer and for an enlisted, both of which have the paste-on stamps. I'm hoping someone can help to clarify this peculiarity!
Billb

jim toncar
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another ID from my personal collection

Post by jim toncar » 08 Aug 2004 21:43

Bill, I have Karl Wolff's Auswiess, dated 11Feb1937, it has a number of validation stamps on it, the last one being 1942..... They are quite rare for high SS Leaders and to me very collectable.
Jim Toncar

bds bill
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Post by bds bill » 08 Aug 2004 23:54

Hi Jim,

A very nice peice you have there! I'd love to see it, if you'd be willing to post a scan on this thread. I've seen other high-ranking SS Ausweise with and without. Apparently, there wasn't any consistent or institutionalized approach. The developing discussion regarding this issue prompted me to take a very close look at the box on the reverse of HIldebrandt's ID. With magnification, it appears that there were once dues stamps pasted there, although they were very cleanly removed. This particular ID would have been invalidated and filed when he became head of the RuSHA, so maybe they were removed then. Thanks of the comments!

Bill

JoeW
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Post by JoeW » 09 Aug 2004 00:32

Billb, I think you are onto something with your comment. Hildebrandt's Ausweis that you have would seem to have been invalidated, stamps removed, red "X" applied and holes punched for filing in his SS Offizier Akten. Jim, can you give me the last word in the text below the rectangle for applying the paper stamps? It is covered by the photo rivet on the Hildebrandt Ausweis.

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Post by jim toncar » 09 Aug 2004 00:53

Bill , I do not know how to post a picture, Im still in the stone ages with computor picture postings. sorry. Joe the last word on the ID card is " Bezlaubigungsmarke " , hope this helps......I would agree with the comments that this is what happens when ID cards are returned .
Jim

bds bill
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Post by bds bill » 09 Aug 2004 02:01

Hi all,

Many thanks for the comments and discussion. Here's another from my personal collection. This one is a Prussian Police ID, issued in March of 1933 to a member of an SS Sturm in the aftermath of the Reichstag Fire when Goering, as Prussian Interior Minister, authorized the deputization of large numbers of SA and SS to assist in the roundup of political "undesirables", i.e.., Communists and Social Democrats, and had numbers of them incarcerated in the brand new concentration camp in Oranienburg! This is the only one of these I've ever seen and was acquired through auction in Germany. Enjoy!

Bill :D
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JoeW
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Post by JoeW » 09 Aug 2004 05:23

Very nice Preussen Hilfspolizei Ausweis. Note he was not authorized to carry a firearm. Nice document.

The citation below the rectangle on the reverse of the Hildebrandt Ausweis indicates that the Ausweis is only valid with a correctly dated certification stamp. Without the stamp, the Ausweis is not valid. Thus it was removed as the Ausweis was returned to his officer file.

bds bill
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Post by bds bill » 09 Aug 2004 12:03

Hi Joe,

Thanks for the comment. I believe, however, that the Ausweis authorizes the carrying of a firearm based on a decree from the Prussian Interior Minister (Goering) issued on Febraury 22, 1933.

Bill

JoeW
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Post by JoeW » 09 Aug 2004 19:52

Billb, thank you for bringing that to my attention. I did not read the footnote completely and erred.

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