SS FSJ Bat. 500/600 Docs.

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HT
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SS FSJ Bat. 500/600 Docs.

Post by HT » 31 Mar 2004 15:26

Your opinion please about the originality of this lot.

The EKI supposedly signed by Steiner (stamp of the III (germ.) SS PzK ).
I guess from this that the unit fought on the Oder in 1945, Am I right ?
Who signed the other?
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Sidewinder
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Post by Sidewinder » 31 Mar 2004 15:29

Hi,

are there any Pics of this famous Unit outthere??

Please post it here,

Thank you in advance

Sidewinder

HT
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Post by HT » 01 Apr 2004 01:20

Hi Sidewinder,

No photos, sorry,

Any help ?

Sidewinder
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Post by Sidewinder » 03 Apr 2004 10:14

Hello HT,
Yes of course .
I am looking for a Homepage or a Link with a lot of Fallschirmjäger Pics on it.
It was very hard for me to find pages with Pictures

Thank you for your Help

Greetings

Sidewinder

Paddy Keating
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Post by Paddy Keating » 04 Apr 2004 00:28

I prepared quite a long critique of these documents, which I would like very much to examine personally. However, one fact stands out: The Spieß of 1./SS-Fallschirmjäger-Btl 600 on February 10th 1945 was SS-Oberscharführer Aussenthal. Aussenthal had also been the Spieß of 1./SS-Fallschirmjäger-Btl 500. Promoted after the withdrawal from the Schwedt Bridgehead on the Oder Front on March 2nd, SS-Hauptscharführer Aussenthal would disappear, presumed drowned, while swimming the Oder during the breakout from the Zehden Bridgehead on March 29th 1945.

Regarding the Gold Wound Badge document for the Battle of Drvar, I am unaware of any SS-Hauptsturmführer und Kompaniechef of SS-Fallschirmjäger-Btl 500 whose name resembles that on the document. I have not seen anything like this signature in any of the surviving paybooks issued to members of SS-Fallschirmjäger-Btl 500. The battalion stamp is also of a form unfamiliar to me.

Image

Above are pages from the paybook of a member of Stab/SS-Fallschirmjäger-Btl 500 who went on to serve with Stab/SS-Fallschirmjäger-Btl 600. So he remained with Battalion HQ throughout time with the battalion.

Look closely at the "SS-Fallschirmjäger-Btl 500" stamp used on September 1st 1944, two days after the date of issue of the Gold Wound Badge document by Bn HQ. The holder of this paybook was an NCO with Bn HQ. The stamps in the paybook and on the document are very different. Furthermore, I have not seen a stamp like this on genuine SS-Fallschirmjäger-Btl 500 documents of this period…or any other period.

The two SS-FJ stamps on Page 19 are the two types most commonly seen on SS-Fallschirmjäger-Btl 500 documents, the early type without the battalion number and the later type with the number. There was also a stamp for the Ausbildungs und Ersatz Kompanie of the battalion.

On February 10th 1945, the date of issue of the EK1 document to SS-Hauptscharführer Sepp Blaichinger of 1./SS-Fallschirmjäger-Btl 600, the 1st Company were dug in outside the village of Grabow in the Schwedt bridgehead on the Oder Front and locked in a brutal defensive battle against Soviet armoured forces. 1./SS-Fallschirmjäger-Btl 600 was commanded by SS-Obersturmführer Walter Scheu, with SS-Ustuf Draeger as 2ic. Aussenthal was the Spieß, as he had been for over six months, since the late summer of 1944.

The EK1 could not have been for the Oder Front. Steiner was nowhere near the Schwedt bridgehead at the time. In any case, EKs to SS-FJ-Btl 600 for the Oder Front were awarded by General Lendle of Infanterie-Division zbV 610.

Image

Image

Decorations were hard-won in the SS-Fallschirmjäger-Bataillon. This had a lot to do with the fact that when initially formed in November 1943, at least half the intake were disciplinary cases, for the most part young soldiers who had committed quite minor offences and been sent to the labour battalions or, in some cases, sentenced to hard labour in various concentration camps like Dachau and Mauthausen. They were offered the chance to rehabilitate themselves by joining the new SS Parachute Battalion. Those found unfit to parachute were sent off to the Dirlewanger Brigade.

Many of the non-disciplinary volunteers were officers, NCOs and SS men whose careers in their parent units were blocked, usually because they had upset their superiors in some way. So recommendations for awards were harder to push through. Kurt Rybka, for instance, was recommended for the Knight's Cross for Drvar and richly deserved one but only got an Honour Roll Clasp. No serving SS paratrooper won the KC. Walter Scheu deserved the KC for his leadership of 1./SS-Fallschirmjäger-Btl 600 in Schwedt, where his men destroyed seventeen Soviet tanks in one morning but he just got the EK1. He didn't even get the two Tank Destruction Strips he earned.

Anyway, it would be interesting to see what someone like Eric Queen has to say about these two documents but as quite a serious collector of SS-FJ material myself, I am afraid that I have some reservations about this ensemble for the reasons I have stated.

PK
Last edited by Paddy Keating on 04 Apr 2004 02:00, edited 1 time in total.

HT
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Post by HT » 04 Apr 2004 01:44

Hello Paddy,

Thank you for the enlighting review of this docs. I guess I wouldn't
find any other who know much better than you about this.
I will skip it.

HT

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Sarge
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SS Fj

Post by Sarge » 13 Apr 2004 07:38

Another error on the 600 doccument is the use of the Kompanie abreviation - 1.Kp./. This was never done to my knowlege. The Kp. was already designated by 1 as was Battalion by I, thus these abreviations were never used. The 500 doccument has it right.
Sarge

S&K KAHN
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Post by S&K KAHN » 14 Apr 2004 00:30

Sarge
Totally wrong on your kp abbreviation theory,(i hate showing the experts where they might be going wrong)

This is just one example from gary tankards excellent wehrpas site,

If you scroll down,you will find as a unit entry, 8. kp/schn.abt.212

http://www.percy.clara.net/units.htm

If you had any real experience with real documentation,you would know this wasnt an oddity.This type of abreviation is seen countless times on many types of paperwork.
Including an example in robin Lumsdens"medals and decorations of hitlers germany"which shows a nahkampfspange document as being awarded to a member of 2.Kompanie grenadier-regiment 78.
You would say,if the 2. is there,then why include the Kompanie.

It was simply the clerks choice to type it that way.

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Georg_S
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Post by Georg_S » 14 Apr 2004 11:43

Hello,

If i am not remember wrong. The SS-Ustuf Walter Scheu
came from a SS-Pz.A.A., and I think it was "Wiking".
Correct me if I was wrong.

Reg.

Georg

Paddy Keating
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Post by Paddy Keating » 14 Apr 2004 12:47

Absolutely correct, Georg. Below is his Armoured Assault Badge in Bronze document.

Image

SS-Aufklärungs-Abteilung 5 was the Wiking Division's reconnaissance unit. Scheu served with SS A. A. 5 from before the invasion of the USSR until early 1943.

Image

Soviet Union, August 1941: Scheu receiving the EK2 from SS-Obersturmbannführer Hans-Albin, Freiherr von Reitzenstein, CO of SS-Aufklärungs-Abt 5. Note the absence of collar patches and of cuff titles for tactical security reasons. Note too the absence of the sigrunen decal from the M35/40 helmet of the man next to Scheu.

Image

Scheu's EK2 document, handsigned by Felix Steiner in the chinagraph crayon used for marking maps, which is still used today in many armies. Regarding the Blaichinger document above, SS-Fallschirmjäger-Btl 600 did serve under Steiner's command at one point so the faker had probably leafed through Munoz's Forgotten Legions.

PK

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Post by S&K KAHN » 16 Apr 2004 02:01

I thought id add a list of typical kp or kompanie associated abbreviations in regards to sarges baseless theory.
sarge,you should really learn your stuff.I would have to ask for someone who supposedly fakes docs,just how poor your fakes must be.

The list is just a small cross section of a thousand docs i have on file.
I have not included the whole unit title but just the kompanie number and kp denominator.

2.KP/.........Pab 75 document
5.verkst.KP/......... workshop unit document
5.KP/.........Pab document
2.TF.KP.......transport unit document
1 Komp/........Pioneer unit document
4(MG)KP........Gren unit document
3 Schwadron/..........cavalry unit document(schwadron is equivalent
to kompanie)
5.KP.........SS totenkopf document
2.Kompanie..........regt 78 document
9. Kompanie..........regt 20 document
3.kompanie..........regt 41 document
7.kompanie..........regt 8 document
2.kompanie..........regt 29 document
4.kompanie..........regt 219 document
7.kompanie..........regt 495 document
5.kompanie..........regt 579 document
2.kompanie..........regt 119 document

and so on,and so on.
I could literally type examples all day.

I think what people have to understand why there is variation in unit titles and abbreviations used on award documents.
When an admin soldier was told to type up an award document for a
soldier he would get the soldiers wehrpass.
He would then update the award entry.
He would then go to the unit entry section and check how the soldiers unit title is written.He would then simply duplicate the way the soldiers unit was titled in the wehrpass onto the award document.
Basically if the soldiers unit was titled in particular way in the wehrpass,then that is how it will be written on the award doc.
For coincedence sake,you may notice that in wehrpass,s ,the majority of unit entries do have just a single digit followed by a slash indicating kompanie number.
This is why most unit titles are seen on docs this way.
On the other hand if you look at enough wehrpass,s you will also notice to a lesser degree, variations on this.Such as"1.komp/ or 1 kp/ or 1 gren kp/.
Because unit titles for award docs were duplicated from wehrpass,s,this also reflects the lesser incidence of these type of abbreviation(s) on award docs.
We must remember that admin clerks didnt try and memorise every units details.An admin clerk may only become aware for the first time of a unit in his own division,when he had to type up an award document.
All he simply was interested in was duplicating the information correctly relevant to the soldier.

S&K KAHN
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Post by S&K KAHN » 20 Apr 2004 23:31

Id also add that knowing Mr keatings experience and knowledge of documents, that if the kp abbreviation was an instant "red flag",he would of been the first one to spot it.
I will say that the use of kp on fj docs is rare ,and rarely seen due to the fact that fj award docs simply arent that common but you will certainly see the abreviations "kp","komp" and the complete word"kompanie"used in fj soldbuchs,nearly always preceded by a digit..I can guarantee you 100% that if it was ok to use it in soldbuchs,then it was most certainly ok,to use it on award docs.

Max Williams
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Post by Max Williams » 21 Apr 2004 16:25

It is my opinion that the 1st Steiner signed document of 10 Feb 1945 is a forgery and not a very good one. The second Steiner document 6 Aug 1941 posted by Paddy Keating is genuine. The very first document posted by HT also looks very suspect. I am basing my assessment mostly on the signatures, an area where I have 30 years experience.
Max

equirhodont
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Re: SS FSJ Bat. 500/600 Docs.

Post by equirhodont » 27 May 2012 11:25

Hi, does anybody know, if Scheu had Totenkopf ring? Thanks!

PzRgt5-Wiking
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Re: SS FSJ Bat. 500/600 Docs.

Post by PzRgt5-Wiking » 15 Mar 2020 06:11

Many of the great photos containing documents are now missing from this thread, is there anyone able to post them again? I was fortunate to be in touch with a number of members of 500/600 including Scheu and would be interested in seeing this documentation. An old thread, but one worthy of continued study.

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