First atomic bomb was German !?!

Discussions on the equipment used by the Axis forces, apart from the things covered in the other sections. Hosted by Juha Tompuri
witcher
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Post by witcher » 01 Nov 2006 16:31

Compared to the financial investment in the V-2, a final total of 1,000 tons of explosive dropped haphazardly here and there within 30 miles of London was pathetic. See the eavesdropped opinions of the captured German generals at Trent Park in Professor Neitzel's book "Abgehoert".
I agree with ohrdruf on the V2, I flew 'model rockets at 12 years of age and remember seeing descriptions and photos of the V2, even at that age I knew the missile had some other purpose than delivering explosives.

bruce

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LWD
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Post by LWD » 01 Nov 2006 16:55

One of the problems here is that the compression is dependent on the mechanics of the impact. A significant protion of these would be completly out of control of the Germans. For instance if it hits a building on the way down then there will likely be no explosion at all. Same if it hits water or soft ground. There is also a good chance that the ball will start breaking up before the reactions starts so even if it lands on an ideal surface there is a good chance it won't explode even fizzle. Predicting the details of what happens in this sort of impact is something that can only be done with high speed computers and very complex programs. It's something that there are only a few experts at now and they tend to consider it as much art as science.

As for the purpose of the V2 being something other than delivering explosives that could well be. I would suggest that it's purpose was to allow Von Braun and company to get funding to continue their research in rocket engineering and design. Selling it to Hitler as a weapon was a practicle approach to this in wartime Germany.

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Post by witcher » 02 Nov 2006 00:20

And the A4? How many of those would it take to damage the US war effort on the east coast?

The Speer and other planners were not dummies. It defies logic to spend so much RM on a useless weapon.

Andreas
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Post by Andreas » 02 Nov 2006 13:59

Kiwikid wrote: The Nazis knew how to enrich uranium before the Manhatten project ever started and you guys are all busy denouncing every website that doesn't have the suffix ".mil" behind it as untrustworthy.
I'd appreciate if, in your apparent attempt to create strawmen, you would not involve my posts explaining to another member what to look for when wanting to know if a site is official US military or not. I also would appreciate if you did not make up stuff that I never said. I did not denounce any website, and I did not say that only .mil websites are trustworthy, I only pointed out to the other member that he was mistaken when he believed that .com websites are official. Next time, try to understand what is being said, before launching wild accusations. This is not the first time you do this, but I strongly suggest it better be the last time.

Thanks.

Andreas

Andreas
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Post by Andreas » 02 Nov 2006 14:01

witcher wrote:And the A4? How many of those would it take to damage the US war effort on the east coast?

The Speer and other planners were not dummies. It defies logic to spend so much RM on a useless weapon.
What, like the Maus?

All the best

Andreas

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Post by Andreas » 02 Nov 2006 14:07

An OT post by Kiwikd and a response by LWD were deleted for, surprise, being off-topic. Any further posts containing discussion of Iraq and the issue of Iraqui ABC capabilities prior to OIF will be deleted in their entirety, to give posters an incentive to stick on topic.

Thank you.

Andreas

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Post by Andreas » 02 Nov 2006 14:15

Kiwikd - your tone in this discussion is unacceptable. You are insulting other posters, and you are deliberately misquoting them. Neither is acceptable.

I strongly suggest that you read, and then re-read the forum guidelines before posting in this thread again. If you can not make contributions to this forum without simultaneously attacking other members, then this forum is clearly not the place for you.

Thank you.

Andreas

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Post by ohrdruf » 02 Nov 2006 16:19

The idea I described above was merely the second string of the German WMD programme, and Witcher is quite right when he questions what use the A9/10 would have been with the one-tonne HE warhead or the alleged Heisenberg uranium "bomb".


Whereas there is no evidence whatever that Hitler's scientists ever embarked on a project to build an atom bomb, there is a great deal to suggest that work was advanced on an unconventional non-nuclear explosive capable of being mass-produced and which had the same killing power as an Hiroshima-type atom bomb.


"In general, it may be said that the Germans were about 6 months too late in the development and mass production of new weapons." James Forrestal, US Navy Secretary, "New York Times", 28.8.1945.

"The Germans were preparing rocket surprises for the whole world in general and England in particular which would have, it is believed, changed the course of the war if the invasion of Germany had been postponed for so short a time as half a year."
Col Donald L Putt, Deputy Cmmdg.Gen. USAAF Intelligence, from his article in "Harper's Magazine", October 1946, p.329.

"The V-2 rocket was just a toy compared to what the Germans had up their sleeve."
British Intelligence CIOS Report XXXII-125


The politically correct stance nowadays is that there were no miracle weapons in the Nazi pipeline and Hitler was all bluff. The three quotes above made immediately after the war suggest that it is the modern West which is bluffing by postulating it as an historical fact that Hitler had no miracle weapons.

The first two quotes above put Hitler six months short of victory, or a negotiated peace, and from Colonel Putt's observation we see that the miracle explosive was rocket-borne. The technology of the time rules out a nuclear warhead. It had to be something conventional, or quasi-conventional.


The trail is actually quite easy to follow:


"Dr Zippermayer was sent to Vienna and told to set up his own laboaratory where he would receive supplementary equipment to further his experiments for the Luftwaffe. The laboratory was located at Weimarer Strasse 87. He had a staff of 35. His main project was a coal dust explosive for the Enzian and Schmetterling flak rocket. The concussion of the explosion could break the wings of a bomber. It was ready by August 1943 but work was then halted."
US Forces Austria, Counter-Intelligence Corps, Salzburg, 4.Aug.1945 Case No S/Z/55 Dr Mario Zippermayer: NARA/RG 319 Entry 82a "Reports and Messages, ALSOS".


"Some of the claimed German secret weapons are mythical, the result of a romantic appreciation of intensive research...but the "whirlwind bomb", which produced an artificial whirlwind, is absolutely authentic even though it seems improbable. The device was constructed and tested by a certain Dr Zippermayer of Lofer in the Austrian Tyrol. The tests...fired projectiles containing coal dust and a slow acting explosive. The effect was sufficient to create an artifical whirlwind capable of bringing down an aircraft over a radius of 914 metres from the point of detonation...."
"German Secret Weapons": Brian Ford, Barrie Pitt and Sir Basil Liddell Hart, 1975.


Next we have a British Intelligence Report:

"Von Ardenne was involved in the major project in 1944. Extremely good results had been obtained from a mixture of 60% liquid air and 40% coal dust. The technical man responsible for the work was a Dr Zippermayer. The first trials were made at Doeberitz near Berlin using a charge of about 8 kgs powder. The liquid air and coal dust were mixed together. Kreutzfeld did this himself. In an area of 500-600 metres radius trees were all completely destroyed. Then the explosion started to rise and affected only tree tops.
Further trials were made by adding a paper impregnated with some strange waxy substance to the mixture. Bombs of 25 kg and 50 kg containing this powder were dropped at Starberger See and some photos taken. Standartenfuehrer Klumm showed the album to Brandt (Himmler's scientific adviser). This more intensive explosion covered an area of 4 to 4.5 kilometres radius. All trees on a hillside 6 kilometres away were destroyed..."
BIOS (British Intelligence Objectives Sub-Committee) Final report 142(g): Information Obtained from Targets of Opportunity in the Sonthofen area, HMSO.


A British spymaster alluded to these bombs in his book:
"Among the agents brought out from BSC was one whose report, sealed and stamped "This is of particular secrecy", told of "certain liquid air bombs being developed in Germany of terrific destructive power".
William Stevenson, Director British Security Coordination, New York, 1941-1945: "A Man Called Intrepid", Sphere Books, 1977, at page 414.


The nature of the effect of the bomb was said to be as follows: "blast, shock wave of hurricane force developing in all directions up to 6 kms, an artifical whirlwind of fire, a lightning storm at ground level which burns up all the air in the affected area and suffocates the survivors of the blast and fire." These bombs could be mass-produced, the main technical work was in producing the "waxy substance" to add to the liquid air and coal dust.


"The German miracle explosive is built on the atomic principle".
Goebbels, August 1943.

Built on the "atomic principle", whatever that is, but not an atom bomb.


In a table talk with Marshal Antonescu on 5 October 1944, Hitler said: "Another of my four V-Weapons is of such potent effect that all life is extinguished within three kilometres from the point of detonation."
(Picker: Hitlers Tischgespraeche)


Throughout the war, Claere Werner was custodian of the Wachsenburg watch tower situated on high ground a few miles NE of Ohrdruf. At 2126 on the evening of 4 March 1945 she testified to having seen an explosive test on the Ohrdruf Troop Training Ground behind Roehrensee:
"There was a brightness like hundreds of lightning flashes, but red inside and yellow outside. Then came a tremendous hurricane gust after which it all fell quiet. Next day local residents kept having physical problems." Another witness stated that the "additive" had been 100 gms. There was some kind of miscalculation and the explosion "went beyond the limits". 400 concentration camp people and 20 SS guards were scorched to death. The bodies were burnt on a communal pyre and for some reason the ashes scattered across the Harz mountains from an aircraft.
On 12 March 1945 witness Claere Werner testified that she saw another, smaller test. "I was told I must never mention anything I had seen, and particularly not the hundreds of bolts of lightning."
(DDR 1962 Judicial Committee of Enquiry into Events at Ohrdruf, 1944-1945: Arnstadt Municipal Archives).

Notice that the witnesses watched the explosions on a dark night: this would not have been possible with a nuclear test. The meteorological effects are also noteworthy.

The suggestion had been made that the "additive" or "waxy substance" was unconventional material:

"I refused to use a bomb which could have destroyed all civilisation".
Hermann Goering, upon his capture, May 1945, reported in: Franz Kurowski, "Von der bedingungslosen Kapitulation bis zur Mondorfer Erklaerung" in GFP eV Kongress Protokol 1985, POtsdam and Yalta, Bassum 1985.

The "additive" or "waxy material" seems to be a potent reagent. There were three known centres where work was done to make this substance:

(1) Pilot project, Waldenburg near Breslau (modern Poland). A converted coal-mine where unorthodox experiments were performed in plasma physics.

(2) Ohrdruf. This centre was a huge subterranean metropolis of four stories extending for a mile in every direction in the shape of a cross, located below the Army Training Ground. Ohrdruf was the Last Redoubt, and the last FHQ. Patton 3.Army blew up the bottom two stories after an inspection. Strange atmospheric effects persist at Ohrdruf to the present day.

(3) The bank of centrifuges was located in a subterranean laboratory at Espenkamp near Muenster. The Farm Hall scientists including Heisenberg were brought here after the war and asked to explain the purpose of the centrifuges.

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Post by Himmelssäule » 02 Nov 2006 18:22

Hallo ohrdruf,

very interesting words from very interesting people ! 8O

Found also this article:

"New light on Hitler's bomb
Forum: June 2005

Controversial new historical evidence suggests that German physicists built and tested a nuclear bomb during the Second World War. Rainer Karlsch and Mark Walker outline the findings and present a previously unpublished diagram of a German nuclear weapon"

you can read the whole article here: http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/18/6/3

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Post by Thranx20 » 02 Nov 2006 22:09

Does anybody wonder what this "Waxy substance" could be? The effects of the weapon being detonated seem very much like a nuclear explosion including the bolts of lightning and streamers which can be seen in photographs of nuclear explosions. What could it be?

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Post by HistorianSr » 02 Nov 2006 22:36

At the end of the war, the Americans and Soviets had heard about the atomic research centers and raced to capture them. The IG Farben Buna Werke was a uranium enrichment facility. The amount of money spent on the project clearly points in that direction. The secrecy surrounding Ohrdruf also points toward atomic bombs.

During the so-called Cold War, the fear was that the Russians had something the Americans missed or did not know about. Long before there were ICBMs, the Americans were flying aircraft constantly, daily, watching for signs of an impending attack.

And finally, someone has noticed that the V-2 was to have little effect as a carrier of a ton of conventional explosives. I would also recommend researchers look into the production of zirconium in Hamburg during the war. It was from this location that zirconium for the American's first atomic powered submarine originated. See Ruhr-Nachrichten, dated 24-11-1987 (Divers salvage secret cargo of maritime hero Captain Carlsen. German zirconium was destined for the first nuclear submarine in the world.)



HSr

Andreas
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Post by Andreas » 03 Nov 2006 09:20

Could I just remind everybody to post sources that corroborate any claim they make? I will start deleting non-compliant posts from now on. The one by HistorianSr is the last one I let get away with it.

Consider this a warning to everybody - the topic of German nuclear research is so full of nonsense that I see no reason to add to it on this forum. This is a serious research forum, not a 'Let's share loony theories that we may have but for which we have no support' forum.

Thank you.

Andreas

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Post by Andreas » 03 Nov 2006 09:27

As for the V2 having little effect carrying one ton of explosives, how about actually doing some research before making ridiculous statements?

The link below gives information about the worst impact of a V2 attack on London, 25 November 1944 at New Cross (well known to any London commuter from the south-east):

http://www.flyingbombsandrockets.com/V2_maintextb.html

The whole site is worth reading for anyone who thinks that the V2 had 'little' effect.

The other effect was of course that the V2 enabled attacks on London at this stage of the war, when the conventional bomber forces no longer were capable of doing so.

All the best

Andreas

Andreas
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Post by Andreas » 03 Nov 2006 09:36

HistorianSr wrote:And finally, someone has noticed that the V-2 was to have little effect as a carrier of a ton of conventional explosives. I would also recommend researchers look into the production of zirconium in Hamburg during the war. It was from this location that zirconium for the American's first atomic powered submarine originated. See Ruhr-Nachrichten, dated 24-11-1987 (Divers salvage secret cargo of maritime hero Captain Carlsen. German zirconium was destined for the first nuclear submarine in the world.)
It appears that this is a theory, not a proven fact - if you have anything stating it as a fact, feel free to provide it:

http://www.deepimage.co.uk/wrecks/flyin ... tcargo.htm

All the best

Andreas

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Post by witcher » 03 Nov 2006 17:03

This is an odd topic to censor. I see no flaming or other outrageous behavour by any members.
The hard information, links, references and speculation are both interesting and useful.

Bruce

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