First atomic bomb was German !?!

Discussions on the equipment used by the Axis forces, apart from the things covered in the other sections. Hosted by Juha Tompuri
M.Rausch
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Post by M.Rausch » 11 Sep 2005 02:42

Interessting – which source?
It was either Prof. Dr. Jürgen Mlynek or Prof. Dr. Fréderic Merkt (I think he was it) in his speech during the celebration of Prof. Demtröder getting emeritus status at the university of Kaiserslautern on 8.10.1998.

kps
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Post by kps » 13 Sep 2005 09:08

@ Ottens
To the classification and “…allied files on Ohrdruf are closed”
You are right. The classification is not alone a Ohrdruf problem but some materials came back to the former concentration camps or from the American Berlin Document Centre. This was a long way and it works sometime slowly but it works.

Concerning the A9/A10 rocket:
The “New Yorker” was not ready and not started – my opinion. There are only papers known for this. The buildings are no facts for the entity of this rocket – only for the planning. Look to the underground factory in Ebensee/ Austria. There was built tunnels for the new research center for the rocket team from Peenemünde after bombardment. The cave is big – but no “New Yorker” was found.

Image

Concerning supposedly Ohrdruf test in March 1945:
Your information’s are important – but not relevant for Ohrdruf or Thuringia. Do you know some documents or notices directly for this area?
Ottens wrote:The Oberkommando der Wehrmacht (OKW, High Command) and Luftwaffe war diaries and all copies of them for the period March 1945 have disappeared and are suspected to be in American keeping.
I tried to connect to the book “Kriegstagebuch des Oberkommandos der Wehrmacht” from Percy E. Schramm. He was the official Wehrmacht (OKW) historian. He wrote by himself from 1943 to 1945 the war diary for the OKW and solved the most parts. The rest are reconstructions of original draft entries/notes – not original - that’s right.

“Der Herausgeber des KTB/OKW und Bearbeiter dieser Bände, Prof. Dr. Percy Ernst Schramm, war 1943-1945 Kriegstagebuchführer des Wehrmachtsführungsstabes. Seine Erläuterungen zum Kriegstagebuch und zu dessen Editionen, vor allem sein Bericht über die Rettung der KTB-Unterlagen durch die Wirren des Kriegsendes sowie sein „Wegweiser“ durch alle Bände sind daher von ganz besonderem Wert.“

Thanks M.Rausch for your information’s.

With kind regards
kps

AssVas
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Post by AssVas » 29 Sep 2005 15:55

Hi all, I am new to this forum, but I love History and of course WWII by every aspect.
No I don't like people to get killed etc. :)

So After I've read all these replies and talks I have to add something, to remind you
that Winner Writes History...

I Agree that if Germans had such a bomb they would have used it .
Though I agree more that if we think realistic , we would see that when allies
where bombing axis installations , german scientists where working underground with
limited funds and materials, not that Germany didn't had them , but the transportation
of them was difficult and time was against them .

My general opinion , is that axis have had many new weapons , some where secret
others not, but at the time they needed to take critical decitions about which programs
should have worked on more and how they should combine them (categorise weapon).
But they have chosen wrong , making mistake after mistake, in a chain made them loose
the 1st hand in ww2 war.

If they had in mind their submarines weakness against allied radars
or their new jet airplanes which could have been produced earlier and in mass
numbers (bombers & fighters) etc. etc. but because i am getting of the point here,
Since the allies invaded France coasts, war was lost.

All the scientists and blueprints and tech knowledge of the Germans just "shipped"
back to the U.S and The Motherlan Russia :) So Everybody knows about German
Flying Discs or other Secret Weapons , which of course documents will not be found
at least for next 20 years. I don't say they could produce the new weapon in large number...
Probalby had prototypes , but that means they had many projects open.
Imagine even these days a new 5th Generation Stealth Fighter takes 4-8 years to move
from prototype to production... during a war this is shorten but not enough.

So if we see bit unnoficially some weapons as... AK-47 that is an upgraded German MP-44
or Russian and American Ground to Ground missiles ,and antiaircraft missiles existed in
German arsenal years earlier, thus they lucked of efficienty, or German jet packs etc.

What I mean is that some things stay burried , while others are visible.
That means that "super weapons" are burried and conversional arms are visible.
Plus The 2 Nuclear Bombs In Japan were NOT nessecary to end the war... it was a pure
test...

For me there are secrets we are not aware off for sure.
I believe that the Germans had if not an atomic bomb , which they tried to built earlier years of ww2,
multiple other projects in development who's prototypes reported missing .
(Germans didn't had labs and bases in europe only) .

Mark V
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Post by Mark V » 29 Sep 2005 21:51

Hi AssVas,

Welcome aboard.

Let me assure, Germans did NOT had an nuclear weapon - they where thousands of miles from that. In this thread there has been some speculation would Germans had been able to produce an nuclear "fizzle" - AN SNEEZE compared to true nuclear explosion.

In words of capable nuclear nations (US, and to some degree Canada and GB during WW2): an nuclear bomb that was an utter failure

In words of LESS capable nations: an weapon that produces an significant amount of yield (comparable to chemical explosives) and considerable local nuclear fallout

Anyone claiming that Germany produced / were on verge of producing working full-yield fission weapon is an fruitcake, and should not be taken seriously about anything he/she is posting.

The fizzle weapon ?? Maybe, maybe not possible with the resources Germans had - anyway, such weapons are not true nuclear weapons by the meaning which is commonly used, and would not had made any difference.


Regards, Mark V

Himmelssäule
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Post by Himmelssäule » 01 Oct 2005 12:39

Mark V wrote:Hi AssVas,

Welcome aboard.

... is an fruitcake, and should not be taken seriously about anything he/she is posting.

...

Regards, Mark V

Hi Mark,

why are you always getting angry ?

This is a common search - the joke in this point is: At the beginning of the search, the end is open - because we do NOT know how it was ! :idea:

If you think you know - good for you, because you need no more search for YOURSELF - maybe others need - be a good boy and let them search - do not feel hurted in your opinion ! :wink:

There are a lot of interesting posts in this thread so be happy !

Special thanks to Ottens !!!

Thanks to AssVas and welcome !



Searching greetings from Germany,


himmelssäule

Mark V
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Post by Mark V » 01 Oct 2005 22:02

Himmelssäule wrote: why are you always getting angry ?

This is a common search - the joke in this point is: At the beginning of the search, the end is open - because we do NOT know how it was ! :idea:
Hi,

Sorry. Not my purpose.

I admit that i am somewhat irritated when people forgot/pass by the massive investment needed for production of nuclear weapons material.

I am not dismissing the possibility of somekind of low-yield weapon design. But in my books those are just not true nuclear weapons. I use the US definition (and good so, because they set the standards here): fizzle is an failed weapon.


Regard, Mark V

M.Rausch
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Post by M.Rausch » 02 Oct 2005 13:17

Well, I take nobody serious lacking to tell just a single source other than his own "so-superior" mind and instead relying on name-calling of others...

Thanks for all others trying to contribute something to the puzzle what was really achieved in Germany during WW2. And among these there seems to be no question that there was at no time during WW2 enough material in German hand to build a real fission bomb. A completly failed trial of such a fission bomb and possibly plans for a dirty bomb, that's what I get as summary till now.

Mark V
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Post by Mark V » 02 Oct 2005 15:00

I am glad to see that people that didn't knew the difference between plutonium, and enriched uranium, and the difficulties manufacturing them, are MUCH more up to date by now.

Myself being "angry" may have served an purpose after all.


Regards, Mark V

Andreas
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Post by Andreas » 02 Oct 2005 15:17

Both of you, knock it off. This bickering is not serving any purpose, you sound like you are just out of Kindergarten.

Andreas

M.Rausch
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Post by M.Rausch » 03 Oct 2005 00:51

I am glad to see that people that didn't knew the difference between plutonium, and enriched uranium, and the difficulties manufacturing them, are MUCH more up to date by now.
Andreas, you called as moderator for sources but Mark V is either not willing or able to tell any for his theories. I did and he just continues to lie about the content of mine and other people's postings. As if it needed a blatherer like him to explain anyone the difference between plutonium and enriched uranium :?

stellung
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Post by stellung » 04 Oct 2005 04:21

Of course the Germans had atom bombs. The uranium processing facility was located in Poland at the IG Farben Buna Werke. No Buna rubber was ever produced there. This facility used coal to generate more electricity than was used for the entire city of Berlin. It is documented that Goering said he had saved the world from destruction after his capture. Further, the Germans had nerve gas but didn't use it.

Documents
A.P.W./U (Ninth Air Force) 96/1945, 373.2 of 19 August 1945, Investigation, Research, Developments and Practical Use of the German Atomic Bomb, Pkts Nos 47 to 53, published by COMNAVEU, 1946.

US National Archives, Northeast Region, Waltham, Massachusetts, Navy secret dispatch #292045, U-234, Cargo Information, 30 May 1945, RG181, Box 531.

US National Archives, Southeast Region, East Point, Georgia, telephone transcript titled Telephone Conversation between Major Smith, WLO and Major Traynor, 14 June 1945.

US National Archives, Southeast Region, East Point, Georgis, Beta Oxide transfer Report, RG194 - 69 A 406 Section 326, Box 17.

See the book Critical Mass by Carter Hydrick.

A diagram of a German atomic bomb also appears on physicsweb.

Hitler knew the war was lost and allowed the atom bombs to fall into the hands of the Americans for two reasons. That they might be used to contain or eliminate the Russians, and as exchange for the lives of certain Nazis.

Mark V
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Post by Mark V » 06 Oct 2005 00:19

Andreas wrote:Both of you, knock it off. This bickering is not serving any purpose, you sound like you are just out of Kindergarten.

Andreas
Very well. You are right, and i am too little bit tired about this worthless bickering.

About sources:

I have NEVER made an claim in this discussion that could not be extremely easily verified and backed up by sources of Oak Ridge National Laboratory, Hanford, DOE, or any other respectfull source about matters about nuclear weapons and industry. Feel feel to poke around the public information (if you would do this - you could spent weeks doing it - just the online sources). BUT i don't feel obligated to waste my time posting direct links to this freely available information to people who think Germans produced enriched uranium in some caves during 1945... waste of time. If someone want to call this information as "theories" - it is not my problem.

Every single of my statement about this technology i have made i can link to goverment status site or give an literature source if asked by respectfull moderators of this forum.

I am trying to get the "nuclear-revisionist" study a bit before posting (and have actually succeeded to some degree).

Regards, Mark V

Mark V
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Post by Mark V » 06 Oct 2005 00:28

stellung wrote:Of course the Germans had atom bombs. The uranium processing facility was located in Poland at the IG Farben Buna Werke.
Oh yeah. :roll:

See, my post about "nuclear-revisionists".

I dont even bother to answer this.


Regards, Mark V

Mark V
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Post by Mark V » 06 Oct 2005 00:44

I take my words back that i have accomplished even small sanity to posts about nuclear matters in this thread/forum.

This last post by stellung was beoynd any common sence.

(i will likely hear about this later on - as an "non-believer", posting "theories" or "false information"....)


... but hey, sometimes i just cant keep my mouth shut.

Himmelssäule
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Post by Himmelssäule » 06 Oct 2005 11:21

@ Mark

Is your school-holiday not even over ???


Dear Stellung,

welcome and thank for your interesting post ! :idea:


Can I find this:

A.P.W./U (Ninth Air Force) 96/1945, 373.2 of 19 August 1945, Investigation, Research, Developments and Practical Use of the German Atomic Bomb, Pkts Nos 47 to 53, published by COMNAVEU, 1946.

US National Archives, Northeast Region, Waltham, Massachusetts, Navy secret dispatch #292045, U-234, Cargo Information, 30 May 1945, RG181, Box 531.

US National Archives, Southeast Region, East Point, Georgia, telephone transcript titled Telephone Conversation between Major Smith, WLO and Major Traynor, 14 June 1945.

US National Archives, Southeast Region, East Point, Georgis, Beta Oxide transfer Report, RG194 - 69 A 406 Section 326, Box 17.


in the internet ?


Thanks

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