Hallo,
in Germany a lot of people are searching in the "Jonastal" (ex DDR area) for the laboratories under the earth in which the first atomic bomb should have been built.
The story tells, that General Patton was the first not german at this place - but is "day-book" sites over these days are lost.
After this the bomb was brought to the US - that was also the reason why the US put 2 bombs on Japan - testing and comparing - one made in the US built after the german prototype !
Greetings from Germany,
Himmelssäule
First atomic bomb was German !?!
-
Himmelssäule
- Member
- Posts: 30
- Joined: 14 Aug 2005 17:54
- Location: Germany
-
Christian Ankerstjerne
- Forum Staff
- Posts: 13884
- Joined: 10 Mar 2002 14:07
- Location: Denmark
-
Himmelssäule
- Member
- Posts: 30
- Joined: 14 Aug 2005 17:54
- Location: Germany
Here some links - I will search for more information and tell you - I thought this forum could tell me news !?!Christian Ankerstjerne wrote:That's nonsense - do you have any evidence whatsoever to back it up?
Christian
http://ssp-exploration.de/the_jonastal_project.htm
http://www.amberroom.org/locations-tunnels-olga-deu.htm
http://farshores.org/sc04naz.htm
http://www.gtgj.de/index4.html
http://www.arnstadt.de/index.php?id=5284&structureId=64
http://www.factorfake.de/wissenschaft-f ... -jonastal/
http://www.robsacc.nl/ottens/thirdreich ... rdruf.html
http://team-delta.info/Forum/archive/in ... /f-18.html
Greetings,
Himmelssäule
Last edited by Himmelssäule on 14 Aug 2005 19:58, edited 2 times in total.
-
K-9
- Member
- Posts: 480
- Joined: 24 Sep 2003 17:40
- Location: Romania
Going back to the topic's title - "First atomic bomb was german?" - there were extensive researches done in Germany regarding atom bombs, but a functional one was never completed (there are no evidences of any kind - documents or "material" ) , all is said about "would-be" german atomic bombs are mere speculations... Same goes for the Jonastal underground complex - since there are no remaining official documents to attest the Jonastal's facility intended use... this gap was filled with speculations,... the most proeminent one beeing the myth of the german A-bomb.
-
Christian Ankerstjerne
- Forum Staff
- Posts: 13884
- Joined: 10 Mar 2002 14:07
- Location: Denmark
-
Himmelssäule
- Member
- Posts: 30
- Joined: 14 Aug 2005 17:54
- Location: Germany
Christian Ankerstjerne wrote:Common for the links above seem to be, that they are all based on rymors and speculation, without any evidence to back it up.
Christian
Thats the reason why I was posting here ... maybe someone knows which units (SS, wehrmacht, US-army ...) had been in the Jonastal at which time ...Greetings,
Himmelssäule
-
ohrdruf
- Member
- Posts: 862
- Joined: 15 May 2004 22:02
- Location: south america
Himmelssaeule
There are a number of declassified documents from West German and DDR archives which indicate the importance of the Ohrdruf site in the last months of the war. In particular, it is beyond doubt that it was to be the last Fuhrer HQ. Allied files on Ohrdruf are closed for a minimum of 100 years, which suggests the importance of the location. Colonel Allen, Patton's adjutant, described the fantastic underground locations in his book "Lucky Forward" published in 1947 - I will quote you the extract if you like - and that is the last we ever hear of them.
According to the DDR documents, it seems clear that some kind of extraordinary explosive substance was tested at Ohrdruf on 4th and 12th March 1945 and that an A9/10 30-metre long rocket was test fired there later that same month. Eye-witness reports about the effects of this explosive do not encourage one to believe that it was "atomic" although popular writers (and publishers!) (and TV documentary makers!) in Germany and elsewhere have recently climbed aboard the "German atomic device" band-waggon.
Patton's 3rd Army took the Ohrdruf region around 7th April 1945. Patton was surprised at the level of resistance he encountered, and at the fact that the Germans had put up veteran SS mountain troops to oppose him. This was 6th SS Division "Nord". These troops were used to gain time to blow up the underground installations at Ohrdruf.
The sudden increase in American weapons-grade uranium stocks in June 1945 has led to speculation that the extra must have come from German arsenals. This is uninformed nonsense. To understand about the American A-bombs one has to bear in mind always the question of the detonation device.
Leading US atomic scientist Oppenheimer had calculated that between 50 kgs and 100 kgs weapons grade uranium was necessary for a Uranium bomb if detonated using the "gun-type trigger". On the other hand, if an efficient "implosion fuse" were invented, a uranium bomb would only need 14 kgs. weapons-grade uranium. The plutonium bomb could only be detonated at all by implosion. No implosion device was invented until June 1945.
At the end of 1944, the United States had enough weapons grade uranium "for three atom bombs" according to military project head Lt-Gen Groves, but would not be able to explode them until "the end of 1945". This means that by the end of 1944 they had about 42 kilos of weapons grade uranium, enough for three U-bombs with an implosion device, or half a bomb with a gun-type device. They also had plutonium, but could not set the bomb off.
The Manhattan Project was a failure until June 1945 in that it could make material for atomic bombs, but lacked the technical ingenuity to set them off.
In June 1945, the Manhattan Project finally came up with an implosion fuse known as the Electronic Bridging Wire. This was the brainchild of American physicist Alvarez in cooperation with Professor Schlicke, a German expert in electronics who had been aboard the captured submarine U-234.
The US now had the means of testing one, and dropping one, plutonium bomb, and of dropping probably three or four Uranium bombs using the new implosion fuse. It will be seen, therefore, that the large "increase in weapons grade uranium stocks" in June 1945 was due entirely to the discovery of the EBW implosion fuse.
There are a number of declassified documents from West German and DDR archives which indicate the importance of the Ohrdruf site in the last months of the war. In particular, it is beyond doubt that it was to be the last Fuhrer HQ. Allied files on Ohrdruf are closed for a minimum of 100 years, which suggests the importance of the location. Colonel Allen, Patton's adjutant, described the fantastic underground locations in his book "Lucky Forward" published in 1947 - I will quote you the extract if you like - and that is the last we ever hear of them.
According to the DDR documents, it seems clear that some kind of extraordinary explosive substance was tested at Ohrdruf on 4th and 12th March 1945 and that an A9/10 30-metre long rocket was test fired there later that same month. Eye-witness reports about the effects of this explosive do not encourage one to believe that it was "atomic" although popular writers (and publishers!) (and TV documentary makers!) in Germany and elsewhere have recently climbed aboard the "German atomic device" band-waggon.
Patton's 3rd Army took the Ohrdruf region around 7th April 1945. Patton was surprised at the level of resistance he encountered, and at the fact that the Germans had put up veteran SS mountain troops to oppose him. This was 6th SS Division "Nord". These troops were used to gain time to blow up the underground installations at Ohrdruf.
The sudden increase in American weapons-grade uranium stocks in June 1945 has led to speculation that the extra must have come from German arsenals. This is uninformed nonsense. To understand about the American A-bombs one has to bear in mind always the question of the detonation device.
Leading US atomic scientist Oppenheimer had calculated that between 50 kgs and 100 kgs weapons grade uranium was necessary for a Uranium bomb if detonated using the "gun-type trigger". On the other hand, if an efficient "implosion fuse" were invented, a uranium bomb would only need 14 kgs. weapons-grade uranium. The plutonium bomb could only be detonated at all by implosion. No implosion device was invented until June 1945.
At the end of 1944, the United States had enough weapons grade uranium "for three atom bombs" according to military project head Lt-Gen Groves, but would not be able to explode them until "the end of 1945". This means that by the end of 1944 they had about 42 kilos of weapons grade uranium, enough for three U-bombs with an implosion device, or half a bomb with a gun-type device. They also had plutonium, but could not set the bomb off.
The Manhattan Project was a failure until June 1945 in that it could make material for atomic bombs, but lacked the technical ingenuity to set them off.
In June 1945, the Manhattan Project finally came up with an implosion fuse known as the Electronic Bridging Wire. This was the brainchild of American physicist Alvarez in cooperation with Professor Schlicke, a German expert in electronics who had been aboard the captured submarine U-234.
The US now had the means of testing one, and dropping one, plutonium bomb, and of dropping probably three or four Uranium bombs using the new implosion fuse. It will be seen, therefore, that the large "increase in weapons grade uranium stocks" in June 1945 was due entirely to the discovery of the EBW implosion fuse.
-
redcoat
- Member
- Posts: 1361
- Joined: 03 Mar 2003 21:54
- Location: Stockport, England
Seeing the U-234 didn't surrender to the allies until the 16th May 1945, pull the other oneohrdruf wrote:In June 1945, the Manhattan Project finally came up with an implosion fuse known as the Electronic Bridging Wire. This was the brainchild of American physicist Alvarez in cooperation with Professor Schlicke, a German expert in electronics who had been aboard the captured submarine U-234.
.
-
Mark V
- Financial supporter
- Posts: 3925
- Joined: 22 May 2002 09:41
- Location: Suomi Finland
By late 1944 Manhattan Project had already succeeded:
- the basic psysics of Uranium fission were well understood and success of gun-type U bomb was pretty much assured
- the "Little Boy" design was ready and frozen
- HEU production was ongoing, the rate was still not satisfactory, but it was just an matter of time when weapons would be ready for use
The fact that they were able to make implosion design (and with that Pu) to work just increased dramatically the potential and factual rate of production of weapons. But US already had an bomb.
Regards, Mark V
BTW. Little Boy didn't needed any kind of initiators to set it off. They were incorporated to design, but it would had worked as well without them. Only the detonation height would not had been able to be set so accurately.
- the basic psysics of Uranium fission were well understood and success of gun-type U bomb was pretty much assured
- the "Little Boy" design was ready and frozen
- HEU production was ongoing, the rate was still not satisfactory, but it was just an matter of time when weapons would be ready for use
The fact that they were able to make implosion design (and with that Pu) to work just increased dramatically the potential and factual rate of production of weapons. But US already had an bomb.
Regards, Mark V
BTW. Little Boy didn't needed any kind of initiators to set it off. They were incorporated to design, but it would had worked as well without them. Only the detonation height would not had been able to be set so accurately.
-
Mark V
- Financial supporter
- Posts: 3925
- Joined: 22 May 2002 09:41
- Location: Suomi Finland
I am little surprised that this "German A-bomb" myth is still alive.
It is clear that people don't understand that basic gun-type Uranium bomb is in its technology kinda "reversed".
In normal weapon production an factory, or research center is given an "lump" of material, lets say high-grade steel. From that material they make every kind of malicious weapons in damp tunnels, guarded by wolfhounds and SS-toops...
The material is easy to obtain, the production of weapon is the difficult part.
In U bomb case, it is exactly reversed. You needed on vast industrial complexes (that could NOT be hidden), thousands of workers, large power stations to feed electricity, and billions to make the material. And then that material could be turned to working weapon even by few men in backyard carage....
So, what ever happened in Jonastal, it wasn't anything significant. Because Germans produced nothing that could be brought to those damp tunnels, to the hands of mad, one-eyed scientists....
And BTW. Patton would not had made difference between water boiler and nuclear reactor - many times in such stories some famous people are brought up, without any context to issue in hand, to make things look more important/mysterious.
Regards, Mark V
It is clear that people don't understand that basic gun-type Uranium bomb is in its technology kinda "reversed".
In normal weapon production an factory, or research center is given an "lump" of material, lets say high-grade steel. From that material they make every kind of malicious weapons in damp tunnels, guarded by wolfhounds and SS-toops...
The material is easy to obtain, the production of weapon is the difficult part.
In U bomb case, it is exactly reversed. You needed on vast industrial complexes (that could NOT be hidden), thousands of workers, large power stations to feed electricity, and billions to make the material. And then that material could be turned to working weapon even by few men in backyard carage....
So, what ever happened in Jonastal, it wasn't anything significant. Because Germans produced nothing that could be brought to those damp tunnels, to the hands of mad, one-eyed scientists....
And BTW. Patton would not had made difference between water boiler and nuclear reactor - many times in such stories some famous people are brought up, without any context to issue in hand, to make things look more important/mysterious.
Regards, Mark V
-
Pat Bowden
- Member
- Posts: 16
- Joined: 15 Aug 2005 06:16
- Location: Conroe, Texas
Sorry Guys
Sorry Guys,
I'm just here to leave a message, seems Old Jurrie here had one of them bugs in his computer,
I'm just here to leave a message, seems Old Jurrie here had one of them bugs in his computer,
Just hope he will do the same for me when the time comes, carry on.Yesterday I saw a Discovery Channel documentary about this subject. There was stated that the Germans didn't have enough "heavy water" which is needed to get reactors going and in that way making an a-bomb.
So , they stated it was impossible....
Jurrie
-
Himmelssäule
- Member
- Posts: 30
- Joined: 14 Aug 2005 17:54
- Location: Germany
Re: Sorry Guys
Pat Bowden wrote:Sorry Guys,
...
Just hope he will do the same for me when the time comes, carry on.Yesterday I saw a Discovery Channel documentary about this subject. There was stated that the Germans didn't have enough "heavy water" which is needed to get reactors going and in that way making an a-bomb.
So , they stated it was impossible....
Jurrie
Hi,
especialy to this point there is told that the SS brought the factory for heavy water from finnland to germany and this factory was officialy never found...
maybe someone else knows more ...
Greetings,
Himmelssäule
-
MAX_theHitMan
- Member
- Posts: 965
- Joined: 19 Apr 2004 00:28
- Location: Planet*Portugal
Hello friendespecialy to this point there is told that the SS brought the factory for heavy water from finnland to germany and this factory was officialy never found...
maybe someone else knows more ...
Greetings,
Himmelssäule
Sorry to be a myth buster, but the factory you refer to was destroyed by allied commandos and some bombers and the remainng heavy-water was sunk when it was placed in a boat. Did you ever see the movie "Heroes of Telemark"? It´s not just a movie, it did happen.
Germany did have alot of heavy water on hand though, but it was used "incorrectly" and was wasted. Allied soldiers who often found heavy-water in containers or stored secretly inside bomb containers and barrels, just simply threw it all away into the ground. Perhaps they had no ideia what the hell "heavy-water" was for, or just might had thought of IT as simply normal water.
Germany was very close to making its A-Bomb, but never did. Everything you have read on other sites is false. There is NO evidence to back up such stories.
Scientists working for the Third Reich knew perfectly well if this "special bomb" was ever to be made, Hitler would defenitly use it against someone. It was just too much of a terror weapon to be made and used. Even Oppenheimer had second thoughts of making it come true, but he knew if Germany was working on one, it was better that the Allies had one too...and quickly before the year 1946. It has been thought of that if Germany had just another year during the war, that it would have had a working A-bomb by the end of 1946 or very early 1947. We shall never know...history took another course. We can only "dream" of things that could have been.
After analysing and reading up on things about the "bomb", I have to say... NO.
Germany did not have a super bomb,and they were not the first to invent the super bomb.
But on the other hand, if it makes you happy, they were the first in alot of other "evil" weapons.
Do yourself a favour and search in Google for a book called "The Virus House" by David Irving.
Go to his site and download the book for yourself for Free.
Read the book... learn some truths never before told.
Sleep better at night knowing something some other folks do not know.
See ya later Dude
-
-
Jurrie
- Member
- Posts: 486
- Joined: 03 Sep 2002 10:54
- Location: Holland,The Netherlands
Re: Sorry Guys
<offtopic>Pat Bowden wrote:Sorry Guys,
I'm just here to leave a message, seems Old Jurrie here had one of them bugs in his computer,
Just hope he will do the same for me when the time comes, carry on.Yesterday I saw a Discovery Channel documentary about this subject. There was stated that the Germans didn't have enough "heavy water" which is needed to get reactors going and in that way making an a-bomb.
So , they stated it was impossible....
Jurrie
Thanks....what happened
& how did you get it?</offtopic>
Jurrie
-
MAX_theHitMan
- Member
- Posts: 965
- Joined: 19 Apr 2004 00:28
- Location: Planet*Portugal
I´ll help out.
Here is the link to download that book for free.
http://www.fpp.co.uk/books/VirusHouse/
Get it and read it carefully.
It will solve out that mystery for you.
There are other greats books out there, but none that really tells you the real deal of what really went on behind the secret nuclear research in the Third Reich.
This is a great book for anyones collection on the subject.
Here is the link to download that book for free.
http://www.fpp.co.uk/books/VirusHouse/
Get it and read it carefully.
It will solve out that mystery for you.
There are other greats books out there, but none that really tells you the real deal of what really went on behind the secret nuclear research in the Third Reich.
This is a great book for anyones collection on the subject.