Czech / German fights 1938/1939

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Rian
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Czech / German fights 1938/1939

Post by Rian » 21 Apr 2005 21:06

In all World peoples think that in 1938 and 1939 Czechoslovakia was captured without one shot. But I know that in 1938 was some border fights between Czech and German Army and German paramilitary Freikorps (e.g. fight in town As). And I know that in March 1939 some Czech soliders open fire to German invasion army.

Have You any informations about this fights????

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Rian
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Re: Czech / German fights 1938/1939

Post by Rian » 02 Dec 2008 15:34

From polish dws.org forum i have information about some fights between czech and german troops in 1938.
Near Srbska Border Post was killed 6 Czech and 1 german soldier
Near Nove Mesto pod Smrkiem - was killed 5 Czech and 2 German soldiers
During Czech withdrawal after Munich - in Czech ambush in Izera Mountains was killed 71 Wehrmacht soldiers (i dont't know - is true or mayby false story or mayby myth - i have any source about this ambush)

Other fights (from Czech pages):
- 13 Sept. 1938 - Habersbirk (Habartov) - 4 Czech Border Guardsmen KIA, 4 member of Sudetendeutsches Freikorps KIA. Czechs speak, that 13 Sept 1939 was first shots of World War Two.
- 13-14 Sept. 1938 - Gossengrün (Krajková) - 5 Czech soldiers KIA, 1 German KIA
- 13 Sept 1938 - Schwaderbach (Bublava) - 2 Czech Border Guardsmen KIA
- 25 Sept. 1938 - battle in Varnsdorf
- 26 Sept. 1938 - fight in Krásné Lípy - II battalion from 42 Inf. Regiment (+2 tanks and 3 armoured cars) vs Sudetendeutsches Freikorps (Czech casualties - 3 WIA, German - unknow but probably higher)

14 March 1939 was fight in Frydek on Czech Silesia between Czech and German Soldiers. Czech unit (from 8th Infantry Regiment "Slezsko") had 2 WIA, Germans (84th IR from 8th ID) unknow number KIA and WIA (6 to 18 KIA). During all fights in Czech Silesia and Moravia in March 1939 Germans lost 21 KIA - most of them in Frydek.

Estimated warfare losses (both guard and the army) from May 1938 to April 1939 are 171 dead, 404 injured, over thousand of soldiers taken prisoner and abducted to Germany proper. Losses in Ruthenia are estimated to 40 dead, 120 injured, 17 missing. In 1938 only was on Czech side 121 KIA: 95 in Bohemian Lands (incl. 69 on September and 26 on October), 12 in Slovakia and 14 in Ruthenia, in 1939 Czech casualties was 50 KIA - incl. 1 KIA in March 1939 against Germans and 49 KIA in fights in Ruthenia.
In 1938 was killed probably 68 members of Sudetendeutsches Freikorps and unknow number of german armed forces.
In 1939 Wehrmast casualties was unknown (In Czech Silesia and Moravia - probably 21 KIA - mostly in Frydek).

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KACKO
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Re: Czech / German fights 1938/1939

Post by KACKO » 17 Dec 2008 21:29

The fights at Ruthenia were mostly against Hungarian terrorist groups, in 1 fight against big such troop concentration also tanks and artillery were used.
Hungarian fighter pilot shot down Czechoslovak Letov S-328 over Slovak territory 1 airman killed one injured (he was probably never charged for the murder).
Then there were fights on north of Slovakia at Kysuce region near Cadca with Polish army (1 Czech and 1 Slovak soldier killed), fights in High tatras region with Polish army (don't know about casualties, some Czechoslovak veterans are mentioning name of some Polish Major.

Hungarian bands were crossing from Hungary through Ruthenia to Poland. Some captured Czechoslovak border patrosl or policmen were also kept in Poland and later returned

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Rian
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Re: Czech / German fights 1938/1939

Post by Rian » 18 Dec 2008 00:09

The fights at Ruthenia were mostly against Hungarian terrorist groups
I know - in Ruthenia were fights against Hungarians near Mukačevo at 6th January 1939 (killed 4 czechoslovak soldiers from 36 IR and 1 from SOS, and 9 hungarian soldiers) and short war at 14-18 March 1939 (czechoslovak 12th infantry division and SOS against hungarian army). But i think were too some fights agains Ruthenian (Ukrainian??) nationalists (Карпатська Січ), eg. 13 March 1939 in Chust.
Then there were fights on north of Slovakia at Kysuce region near Cadca with Polish army (1 Czech and 1 Slovak soldier killed),
Polisch casualties was 2 KIA near Čadca and 2 KIA near Ždiar (and 1 major KIA in High Tatra)

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KACKO
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Re: Czech / German fights 1938/1939

Post by KACKO » 18 Dec 2008 19:07

Rian wrote: Polisch casualties was 2 KIA near Čadca and 2 KIA near Ždiar (and 1 major KIA in High Tatra)
Hello Rian.
Is there a chance you know the name of Polish Major KIA in High Tatras area?

And yes, there were also some clashes of Czechoslovak army with Karpatska Sitch. Over here on the forum it was mentioned by guy using name Askold. He even posted some picture. But clashes soon more or less ended as Sitch realized there is worst enemy.

Check this:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6&p=665465

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Rian
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Re: Czech / German fights 1938/1939

Post by Rian » 19 Dec 2008 14:56

Hi Kacko
My last post had wrong informations:
Polisch casualties was 2 KIA near Čadca and 2 KIA near Ždiar (and 1 major KIA in High Tatra)
Polish casualties near Čadca is OK, but Ždiar and High Tatra is actually same fight (Ždiar is village in High Tatra), and polish casualties in Ždiar was 1 major KIA and 1 soldier WIA.

Info from polish dws.org.pl forum about fight in Ždiar:
"27 November 1938 polish 24th uhlan regiment (motorized) was on route from Łysa Polana to Javorina and than to Ždiar Pass. Near village Ždiar came czechoslovak colonel Duda, which informed polish commander - col. Maczek, that he have order to defend village. Col. Maczek after speak with general Bortnowski gave order to attack. During fight polish major Stefan Rago was KIA and corporal Oleksiński was WIA. Czechslovak unit had 2 KIA and some WIA"

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KACKO
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Re: Czech / German fights 1938/1939

Post by KACKO » 19 Dec 2008 17:35

Thanks, I have hopefully somewhere article about this fights published by Czech historian. Hopefully because one of my HDD didn't like crash landing on the floor. :D
Thanks for the name of the Major.

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Rian
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Re: Czech / German fights 1938/1939

Post by Rian » 20 Dec 2008 12:52

Every day new informations... Corporal Henryk Oleksowicz died in Zakopane Hospital at 13 Jamuary 1939. Than info about 2 polish KIA in fight in Ždiar is OK.

Info from polish dws.org.pl forum about czechoslovak army fights in 1938

with Germans:
19 October - Zelechovice (4 SOS soldiers KIA)
31 October - Moravska Chrastowa, Czechoslovak army used tanks and armoured train (4 soldiers KIA)

with Hungarians:
5 October - attack at Moravska Sobota
7 October - Hungarians need to cross Danube
10 October - fights against Rongyos Gárda on Podkarpatská Rus, in fights was used tanks and planes
31 October -fights near Kosina, (incl. tanks)
25 October - over Slovakia was shot down by Hungarians czechoslovak recon plane
5 November - shots between czechoslovak and hungarian ships on Danube
19 grudnia - hungarian attack at Slanec (SOS lost 1 KIA and few WIA)

with Polish:
28-31 October - polish diversants attack bridge near Vuckov (2 KIA)
15/16 November - night attack at Prislop
19/20 November - second attack
21/22 November - third attack at Prislop (Czechoslovak army used tanks)
25 November - battle near Cadca (both sides used artillery and air forces)
27 November - fight in Tatra

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Re: Czech / German fights 1938/1939

Post by Sid Guttridge » 20 Dec 2008 13:30

Hi Guys,

In the Czech military museum in Prague ten years ago there was a list of Czechoslovak losses in 1938-39 against Germans, Hungarians and Poles. I seem to remember that it ran into the hundreds. It is interesting to compare this with losses in some later "campaigns" such as Denmark (April 1940) or Vichy France (November 1942). Czechoslovakia did not roll over and die quite as passively as is often assumed.

Cheers,

Sid.

3mk
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Re: Czech / German fights 1938/1939

Post by 3mk » 20 Dec 2008 19:50

Rian can you tell me why the Poles attacked the Czechs in 1938 i thought they only fought during 1918-1922 but most of those attacks were little border disputes.

Thanks

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Re: Czech / German fights 1938/1939

Post by David Thompson » 20 Dec 2008 20:26

Nazi destabilization of Czechoslovakia
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=14407

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Rian
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Re: Czech / German fights 1938/1939

Post by Rian » 20 Dec 2008 23:28

Rian can you tell me why the Poles attacked the Czechs in 1938 i thought they only fought during 1918-1922 but most of those attacks were little border disputes.
There was Polish - Czechoslovak dispute over some regions (Cieszyn Silesia, parts of Spiš and Orava). This territories was parts of Habsburg Czech Kingdom (Cieszyn Silesia) and Kingdom of Hungary (Spiš and Orava in Upper Hungary - today Slovakia), but on this territories lived polish minority, and both sides (Czechoslovakia and Poland) claim to hold this territories. Was some fights in 1918 (eg. 3 December 1918 fight in Kežmarok, Slovakia) and in 1919 (7 day war on Cieszyn Silesia) - majority of this territories was finally under Czechoslovak rule.

In 1938 Poland don't attacked Czechoslovakia. Poland has taken disputed territories "peacefully" (czechoslovak government accepted polish ultimatum, withdrew soldiers and gave addministration over this territories to polish authorities). Fights was only in few points - where new border was unclear (like Čadca).
In the Czech military museum in Prague ten years ago there was a list of Czechoslovak losses in 1938-39 against Germans, Hungarians and Poles. I seem to remember that it ran into the hundreds. It is interesting to compare this with losses in some later "campaigns" such as Denmark (April 1940) or Vichy France (November 1942). Czechoslovakia did not roll over and die quite as passively as is often assumed.
Lot of Czechoslovak army (and SOS) soldiers was KIA not in regural fights but in fights against terrorists or diversants - german Freikorps or hungarian or ukrainian/ruthenian (Sich Karpatska).
Real "war" (army vs army) was only in march 1939 in Subcarpathian Rus (czechoslovak army vs hungarian army). Was some smaller fights where on both sides fought "real" soldiers (against Germans in Mistek, against Polish in Čadca and Zdiar, against Hungarians in 1938).

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KACKO
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Re: Czech / German fights 1938/1939

Post by KACKO » 21 Dec 2008 15:50

Polish Minority on territories of Slovak Spis and Cadca region is very discussed topic. Especially Spis region. A lot of people living there tought of themselves as Gorals and then this Gorals divided some of them said they are Slovaks and some that they are Poles. Thing is that after September 1939 war regions were attached back to Slovakia and most population were more then happy.
After war in 1945 Slovaks from Polish Spis petitioned Czechoslovak Government to keep disputed territories in Czechoslovakia but Government because of Tesin question didn't want to get into another argument with Poland.
Anyway after war a lot of Slovaks had to leave Polish Spis, mostly because of action of "Ogion" group.
End even today there are some Slovak schools in Polish Spis.

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Rian
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Re: Czech / German fights 1938/1939

Post by Rian » 21 Dec 2008 21:22

I know - in Cadca region was almost 100% Slovaks, but in Spis and Orawa was too Polish minority. How big?? Nobody know (in hungarian sources from 19th century was no polish minority). But nevermind. Dispute was in first part of 20th century and these arguments was in first part of 20th century - not today.

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KACKO
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Re: Czech / German fights 1938/1939

Post by KACKO » 21 Dec 2008 22:07

Rian wrote:I know - in Cadca region was almost 100% Slovaks, but in Spis and Orawa was too Polish minority. How big?? Nobody know (in hungarian sources from 19th century was no polish minority). But nevermind. Dispute was in first part of 20th century and these arguments was in first part of 20th century - not today.
Spis is really hard to say. As I said it depended from person to person. In one family there should be people who felt Poliswh and other Slovak. And, actually, I have family on the Polish side. Some of them feel to be Poles some Slovaks living in Poland. So I can even speak some broken Polish. ;)

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