Role of the Islamic World in WWII

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Texas Jäger
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Re: Role of the Islamic World in WWII

Post by Texas Jäger » 28 Apr 2020 23:33

What was the one that served in Italy?

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Re: Role of the Islamic World in WWII

Post by SloveneLiberal » 20 Jun 2020 22:47

Grand mufti of Jerusalem helped the Nazis and the ustasha to organize SS Bosnian muslim division. It was used mostly in anti-partisan operations, but also in fighting against Soviet troops in Hungary. Division or its remains managed to move in Italy and surrendered to the British there at the end of war.
After the war hunders of former members of the division went to Palestine and fought against Jews there in Arab Israeli war. However 38 were extradited to Yugoslavia and were tried for war crimes specially against Serbian and Jewsih civilians during the war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_Waff ... _Croatian)

Also grand mufti was sending letters to European leaders advocating that they should not send Jews to Palestine but relocate them to Poland, knewing very well that genocide was going on there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBXd5Kyy6M4

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Re: Role of the Islamic World in WWII

Post by daveshoup2MD » 09 Jan 2022 03:32

Texas Jäger wrote:
15 Apr 2020 16:47
Much has been written on the topic of collaboration between individual Muslims like Rashid Ali, and the Axis Powers, but what was the general stance of the Muslim/Arab World to the war, whether the states or the people themselves if it could be summarized? Which side did the non-colonized countries fight? I can't find much information on this subject.
"Non-colonized" Arab majority states would amount to Saudi Arabia, "Egypt" (which despite being officially independent and neutral, was essentially controlled by the UK); Iraq (which was home to a significant British garrison and so was pretty close to "colonized"), Transjordan/Jordan (same) and - arguably - a couple of the minor emirates in the Gulf and/or the Arabian Peninsula - which were (essentially) within the British sphere of influence. All of the above ended up under Allied control, or were aligned economically and politically with the Allies, by (arguably) 1942 or so.

"Non-colonized" Muslim majority nations would be Turkey, Iran, and Afghanistan; Iran was occupied and Turkey and Afghanistan remained neutral.

"Colonized" Muslim majority states provided the majority of the line infantry for the Free French in 1941-44, and much of that for the Indian Army in 1939-45, as well as other combat, support, and service troops for the British/Indian/British Imperial/Colonial force and French forces, as well as merchant mariners, labor troops and civilian laborers, etc. Fair number of Soviet troops were Muslim, as well, as well as some Chinese, NEI, Yugoslav, and Polish forces, as well.

All in all, far more Muslims fought and died for the Allies in WW II than for the Axis.

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Loïc
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Re: Role of the Islamic World in WWII

Post by Loïc » 09 Jan 2022 04:47

daveshoup2MD wrote:
09 Jan 2022 03:32
Texas Jäger wrote:
15 Apr 2020 16:47
Much has been written on the topic of collaboration between individual Muslims like Rashid Ali, and the Axis Powers, but what was the general stance of the Muslim/Arab World to the war, whether the states or the people themselves if it could be summarized? Which side did the non-colonized countries fight? I can't find much information on this subject.
"Non-colonized" Arab majority states would amount to Saudi Arabia, "Egypt" (which despite being officially independent and neutral, was essentially controlled by the UK); Iraq (which was home to a significant British garrison and so was pretty close to "colonized"), Transjordan/Jordan (same) and - arguably - a couple of the minor emirates in the Gulf and/or the Arabian Peninsula - which were (essentially) within the British sphere of influence. All of the above ended up under Allied control, or were aligned economically and politically with the Allies, by (arguably) 1942 or so.

"Non-colonized" Muslim majority nations would be Turkey, Iran, and Afghanistan; Iran was occupied and Turkey and Afghanistan remained neutral.

"Colonized" Muslim majority states provided the majority of the line infantry for the Free French in 1941-44,
the Free French infantrymen can't come in majority from colonized muslims

the FFL Forces Françaises Libres, in 1940-1942 as there were no longer "Free French" after 1943
58% were French citizens
~36% from colonized indigenous - but mainly black Africans from AEF - Afrique Equatoriale Française
and 5% foreigners,
concerning the indigenous africans they came mainly from Camerun (an animist and christian area with few muslims),
Chad (half muslim half animist area)
Ubangui-Chari (two thirds anismist today Central African Republic)
Middle-Congo and Gabon (both half christian half animist areas)

so nothing to do with muslim North African nor AOF as these African territories under Free French authority, the AEF, was precisily mainly animist, paganist or christian and not islamized contrary to the islamized Western (AOF) and North Africa

the post-1942 French Army is not at all "Free French", the muslims north-africans, could form a thin majority during the Italian campaign in 1943-1944,
many people tend to convert the Armée d'Afrique in a politically correct african to not say north african muslim army wishing to forget or erase its strong european dimension...

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Re: Role of the Islamic World in WWII

Post by daveshoup2MD » 09 Jan 2022 04:57

Loïc wrote:
09 Jan 2022 04:47
daveshoup2MD wrote:
09 Jan 2022 03:32
Texas Jäger wrote:
15 Apr 2020 16:47
Much has been written on the topic of collaboration between individual Muslims like Rashid Ali, and the Axis Powers, but what was the general stance of the Muslim/Arab World to the war, whether the states or the people themselves if it could be summarized? Which side did the non-colonized countries fight? I can't find much information on this subject.
"Non-colonized" Arab majority states would amount to Saudi Arabia, "Egypt" (which despite being officially independent and neutral, was essentially controlled by the UK); Iraq (which was home to a significant British garrison and so was pretty close to "colonized"), Transjordan/Jordan (same) and - arguably - a couple of the minor emirates in the Gulf and/or the Arabian Peninsula - which were (essentially) within the British sphere of influence. All of the above ended up under Allied control, or were aligned economically and politically with the Allies, by (arguably) 1942 or so.

"Non-colonized" Muslim majority nations would be Turkey, Iran, and Afghanistan; Iran was occupied and Turkey and Afghanistan remained neutral.

"Colonized" Muslim majority states provided the majority of the line infantry for the Free French in 1941-44,
FL Forces Françaises Libres, in 1940-1942 as there were no longer "Free French" after 1943
58% were French citizens
came ~36% from colonized indigenous - but mainly black Africans from AEF - Afrique Equatoriale Française
and 5% foreigners,
concerning the indigenous africans they came mainly from Camerun (an animist and christian area with few muslims), Chad (half muslim half animist area), Ubangui-Chari (two thirds anismist today Central African Republic), Middle-Congo and Gabon (both half christian half animist areas)

so nothing to do with muslim North African nor AOF as these African territories under Free French authority, the AEF, was precisily mainly animist, paganist or christian and not islamized contrary to the islamized Western (AOF) and North Africa

the post-1942 French Army is not at all "Free French", and the muslims north-africans, could form a thin majority during the Italian campaign in 1943-1944,
many people has converted the Armée d'Afrique in an politically correct african to not say north african muslim army wishing to forget or erase its strong european dimension...
Loic - "Free French" was shorthand for the forces fighting alongside the Allies, as opposed to the Vichy forces, but okay; would "Allied French" have been better? My apologies.

However, the French field forces in 1943-44 (before the FFI and metropolitan manpower were available) amounted to the 1st, 2nd, and 5th armored divisions, and the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th Mountain, and 9th infantry divisions, plus the (roughly) division-sized provisional mountain corps made up of the GTMs. By my count, that's the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Mountain divisions, and the GTM "corps," all recruited in FNA, and with the infantry (largely) being Muslim, correct? So, 12 regiment equivalents?

The 1st infantry division had French, East African, West African and North African infantry elements, and the 9th Division was built around three infantry regiments recruited in sub-saharan Africa, so that's what - six infantry equivalents? Throw in the nine battalions in the three French armored divisions, that's what, the equivalent of nine infantry regiments?

So, 12 as compared to nine regiments of line infantry, correct?

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Re: Role of the Islamic World in WWII

Post by Loïc » 09 Jan 2022 05:36

Your comment is only really valid for the Tunisian and Italian campaign in 1943-1944 baning the word Free French and replacing it by the French Expeditionary Corps in Italy, there is no other French Army under Vichy after november 1942 except very nominaly in Indochina and special status and particular cases forming all but an army

the muslims north africans provided the majority of the infantry in these last 3 divisions (2e DIM 3e DIA 4e DMM) of 8 divisions taking into account that the Zouaves Regiments gathering the European in North African Divisions were replaced by a system sending directly them within the North African Tirailleurs Regiments

the 1st Motorized Infantry, historically a true Free French division on a british-3 brigades-3 battalions type, there was only the 22nd North African Battalion brigaded with 2 Foreign Legion Battalions, it was a division with a majority of French citizens and so less concerned by the europeanization of the autumn 1944

no idea for the religions represented in the 9e DIC before its europeanisation, probably a mix of muslims animist paganist christians according to the ethnic groups of the soldiers...

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Re: Role of the Islamic World in WWII

Post by daveshoup2MD » 09 Jan 2022 07:04

Loïc wrote:
09 Jan 2022 05:36
Your comment is only really valid for the Tunisian and Italian campaign in 1943-1944 baning the word Free French and replacing it by the French Expeditionary Corps in Italy, there is no other French Army under Vichy after november 1942 except very nominaly in Indochina and special status and particular cases forming all but an army

the muslims north africans provided the majority of the infantry in these last 3 divisions (2e DIM 3e DIA 4e DMM) of 8 divisions taking into account that the Zouaves Regiments gathering the European in North African Divisions were replaced by a system sending directly them within the North African Tirailleurs Regiments

the 1st Motorized Infantry, historically a true Free French division on a british-3 brigades-3 battalions type, there was only the 22nd North African Battalion brigaded with 2 Foreign Legion Battalions, it was a division with a majority of French citizens and so less concerned by the europeanization of the autumn 1944

no idea for the religions represented in the 9e DIC before its europeanisation, probably a mix of muslims animist paganist christians according to the ethnic groups of the soldiers...
True enough - so, three of the five infantry divisions the French recruited/organized for the CEF and/or 1st Army in 1943-44 were made up largely of Muslim North African enlisted personnel, certainly in those three divisions' nine infantry regiment equivalents, correct? As were all four of the regiment-sized GTMs, right?

And that compares with three (very racially/ethnically) mixed regimental equivalents in the 1st infantry division and three more of (largely) sub-Saharan Africans in the 9th, right?

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Re: Role of the Islamic World in WWII

Post by Loïc » 09 Jan 2022 16:31

three of the five infantry divisions the French recruited/organized for the CEF and/or 1st Army in 1943-44 were made up largely of Muslim North African enlisted personnel
it was rather tended to have a mix of each, European and North African, in each Division than largely
the "infantry" of these 3 divisions had a ratio ~66% vs 33 one European for two muslims, but at the "divisional" level is rather fifty fifty 55/45 60/40
if you substract the European infantry element and wish to consider only muslims and not counting non-muslims ipso facto you cease to have the strenght of whole 9 infantry regiments but 9 regiments less one third each, so equivalent to 6 regiments in number
the 3 regimental-size GTM were almost all moroccan auxiliaries with few French cadres

the indigenous regiments in the French Army are not units coming only from Africans and excluding European in their ranks, even in 1939 the Senegalese and Algerian Tirailleurs Regiments had this ratio two thirds/one third


Regards
Loïc

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Re: Role of the Islamic World in WWII

Post by daveshoup2MD » 09 Jan 2022 23:19

Loïc wrote:
09 Jan 2022 16:31
three of the five infantry divisions the French recruited/organized for the CEF and/or 1st Army in 1943-44 were made up largely of Muslim North African enlisted personnel
it was rather tended to have a mix of each, European and North African, in each Division than largely
the "infantry" of these 3 divisions had a ratio ~66% vs 33 one European for two muslims, but at the "divisional" level is rather fifty fifty 55/45 60/40
if you substract the European infantry element and wish to consider only muslims and not counting non-muslims ipso facto you cease to have the strenght of whole 9 infantry regiments but 9 regiments less one third each, so equivalent to 6 regiments in number
the 3 regimental-size GTM were almost all moroccan auxiliaries with few French cadres

the indigenous regiments in the French Army are not units coming only from Africans and excluding European in their ranks, even in 1939 the Senegalese and Algerian Tirailleurs Regiments had this ratio two thirds/one third


Regards
Loïc
How many French/"European" enlisted personnel were there in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th divisions' infantry battalions? Some ncos and most officers, of course, but the rank and file rifleman, machine gunner, etc., were Muslim North Africans, were they not?

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Re: Role of the Islamic World in WWII

Post by AnchorSteam » 10 Jan 2022 04:19

There was also Italian East Africa, where Somali cavalry and above all; Eritrean Colonial troops were the toughest opposition in the whole area. The Ereteans at Karen were rated as one of the three toughest adversaries the British army faced in the war on a man-to-man basis (the other two were the Germans at Monte Cassino and the Japanese in Burma.

And speaking of the Japanese , they held Malaya and Indonesia for most of the war, and those are the most populous muslim nations in the world. Anything about them?

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Re: Role of the Islamic World in WWII

Post by daveshoup2MD » 10 Jan 2022 05:54

AnchorSteam wrote:
10 Jan 2022 04:19
There was also Italian East Africa, where Somali cavalry and above all; Eritrean Colonial troops were the toughest opposition in the whole area. The Ereteans at Karen were rated as one of the three toughest adversaries the British army faced in the war on a man-to-man basis (the other two were the Germans at Monte Cassino and the Japanese in Burma.

And speaking of the Japanese , they held Malaya and Indonesia for most of the war, and those are the most populous muslim nations in the world. Anything about them?
The KNIL (NEI colonial army) had a significant percentage of locally-recruited Muslim personnel, although local Christians were a significant element of the KNIL manpower pool as well.

The British raised one "local" battalion in Malaya that would have been (presumably) majority Muslim.

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Re: Role of the Islamic World in WWII

Post by Sheldrake » 10 Jan 2022 13:27

The largest Muslim force was serving in the British Indian Army. As mentioned in post #7. The British favoured recruiting from the Punjabi Muslims. Part of this was a historic racist recruiting ideology. The idea was that best warriors were from the Northern, in Asia and Europe, the "Martial Race" idea.

The Hindu dominated Indian National Congress had a campaign of non co-operation with British rule, and led the quit Inida protests of 1942. The Muslim League supported India's involvement in WW2, Leaders of the substantial Muslim minority saw co-operation with the British as a lever in establishing a post imperial Muslim state, whereas Congress sought a single unified India, that would be dominated by the Hindu majority.

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Re: Role of the Islamic World in WWII

Post by daveshoup2MD » 11 Jan 2022 04:49

Sheldrake wrote:
10 Jan 2022 13:27
The largest Muslim force was serving in the British Indian Army. As mentioned in post #7. The British favoured recruiting from the Punjabi Muslims. Part of this was a historic racist recruiting ideology. The idea was that best warriors were from the Northern, in Asia and Europe, the "Martial Race" idea.

The Hindu dominated Indian National Congress had a campaign of non co-operation with British rule, and led the quit Inida protests of 1942. The Muslim League supported India's involvement in WW2, Leaders of the substantial Muslim minority saw co-operation with the British as a lever in establishing a post imperial Muslim state, whereas Congress sought a single unified India, that would be dominated by the Hindu majority.
True. As stated, there were far more Muslims who fought and died for the Allied cause in W II than ever came close to wearing an Axis uniform.

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Re: Role of the Islamic World in WWII

Post by Loïc » 12 Jan 2022 00:30

How many French/"European" enlisted personnel were there in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th divisions' infantry battalions? Some ncos and most officers, of course, but the rank and file rifleman, machine gunner, etc., were Muslim North Africans, were they not?
with around 30% of the strenght in a Tirailleurs Regiment it will be hard to find all the French personnel as Officers and NCO's and the rest African Others Ranks as cannon fodder myth like in the bad awfull rather heavily politically biased than historically accurate algerian movie "days of glory" from a previous post, some infantry companies needing more technical training such as the antitank company or heavy weapons companies had large european personnel
I don't have the breakdown for a type-1943 regiment but in 1940 with similar a third European personnel in a Tirailleurs Regiment this means that without Officers (most French) without NCO's (around four in ten were Africans) it remains one quarter of others ranks being simply French

to raise these new divisions in 1943 the mobilisation of the European was very far superior ten times than of the muslims north africans and suffered proportionnaly larger losses than of the north africans, two points often curiously largely forgotten or ignored beginning by Bouchareb and Co

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Re: Role of the Islamic World in WWII

Post by daveshoup2MD » 12 Jan 2022 03:52

Loïc wrote:
12 Jan 2022 00:30
How many French/"European" enlisted personnel were there in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th divisions' infantry battalions? Some ncos and most officers, of course, but the rank and file rifleman, machine gunner, etc., were Muslim North Africans, were they not?
with around 30% of the strenght in a Tirailleurs Regiment it will be hard to find all the French personnel as Officers and NCO's and the rest African Others Ranks as cannon fodder myth like in the bad awfull rather heavily politically biased than historically accurate algerian movie "days of glory" from a previous post, some infantry companies needing more technical training such as the antitank company or heavy weapons companies had large european personnel
I don't have the breakdown for a type-1943 regiment but in 1940 with similar a third European personnel in a Tirailleurs Regiment this means that without Officers (most French) without NCO's (around four in ten were Africans) it remains one quarter of others ranks being simply French

to raise these new divisions in 1943 the mobilisation of the European was very far superior ten times than of the muslims north africans and suffered proportionnaly larger losses than of the north africans, two points often curiously largely forgotten or ignored beginning by Bouchareb and Co
Thanks; be interesting to see the rosters - presume the surnames would make the situation very clear.

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