British Mobilization Plans 1941-43

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British Mobilization Plans 1941-43

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 26 Apr 2020 00:49

The Brits had been planning & executing mobilization with goals based on France still being a ally in the war, & presumably still in possession of most of France. Any one have any knowledge of what the Brits expected to field or put to sea based on plans made up to May 1940? What might the RAF, the ground forces, support forces, and RN looked like in 1941 or 1942 had the battle of France been won by the Allies, or not occurred?

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Re: British Mobilization Plans 1941-43

Post by Ружичасти Слон » 26 Apr 2020 12:01

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
26 Apr 2020 00:49
The Brits had been planning & executing mobilization with goals based on France still being a ally in the war, & presumably still in possession of most of France. Any one have any knowledge of what the Brits expected to field or put to sea based on plans made up to May 1940? What might the RAF, the ground forces, support forces, and RN looked like in 1941 or 1942 had the battle of France been won by the Allies, or not occurred?
You are correct. Until june 1940 Britain was plan for to win war with France. Both was have big confidence for to win. Expect was be for long war maybe 3 years or more. Concept was be for to make Germany weak by navys blockade and airforces bombing. When time was right armys was attack.

In march 1940 Britain was decide for to end policy for limited liability and was decide for to make 32 divisions on field army for to fight anywhere in world. 32 divisions was not include empire garrisons or Army of India or Army of Nile.

After war was start and Dominions was make war with Germany
Even so, on 8 September the War Cabinet’s Land Forces Committee recommended that all planning should be based on the assumption that the war would last for at least three years. Britain should raise a field force of fifty-five fully equipped divisions (thirty-two British, fourteen Dominion, four Indian divisions, and equipment for five allied divisions). It believed that it would be possible to equip twenty divisions by September 1940, provided that steps to extend factory space were begun at once, that the Ministry of Supply was given first priority for labour and raw materials, and that the Schedule of Reserve Occupations, which protected skilled labour from the call-up, was rigorously enforced.7
Important for to note was be that Britain was plan to make all equipment on island. Was no plan for to make factorys in Dominions or Empire. Priority for decision was be to keep all industrys on island. Priority was for to keep island in control position of empire was not to build army and industry for to win long war with Germany.

After British army was beat and was escape on Dunkirk but before France was surrender Churchill was give speech on 4.june
I have, myself, full confidence that if all do their duty, if nothing is neglected, and if the best arrangements are made, as they are being made, we shall prove ourselves once again able to defend our island home, to ride out the storm of war, and to outlive the menace of tyranny, if necessary for years, if necessary alone. At any rate, that is what we are going to try to do. That is the resolve of His Majesty's Government—every man of them. That is the will of Parliament and the nation. The British Empire and the French Republic, linked together in their cause and in their need, will defend to the death their native soil, aiding each other like good comrades to the utmost of their strength. Even though large tracts of Europe and many old and famous States have fallen or may fall into the grip of the Gestapo and all the odious apparatus of Nazi rule, we shall not flag or fail. We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender, and even if, which I do not for a moment believe, this island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, would carry on the struggle, until, in God's good time, the new world, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old.
Important for to note Churchill was expect already France was to fail and was plan for to not surrender for to keep fight and for to wait Amerika to come with big armys.

After june 1940 Britain was revise field army plan. New plan was be still 55 divisions but 34 was be from island 9 Indian 5 Afrika 3 Canada 3 Australia and 1 NZ.

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Re: British Mobilization Plans 1941-43

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 26 Apr 2020 16:58

Thanks for this. Where should I look for the source of your quotes?
Ружичасти Слон wrote:
26 Apr 2020 12:01
... Important for to note was be that Britain was plan to make all equipment on island. Was no plan for to make factorys in Dominions or Empire. Priority for decision was be to keep all industrys on island. Priority was for to keep island in control position of empire was not to build army and industry for to win long war with Germany. ...
This deserves deeper examination. A study of of the US aircraft industry and military aircraft development shows significant orders for US made aircraft were placed when the Neutrality Acts were altered during the autumn of 1939. The use of foreign industry seems to have been part of the plan to avoid over investment in UK positioned arms manufacture.

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Re: British Mobilization Plans 1941-43

Post by Ружичасти Слон » 26 Apr 2020 17:57

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
26 Apr 2020 16:58
Thanks for this. Where should I look for the surge of your quotes?
Ружичасти Слон wrote:
26 Apr 2020 12:01
... Important for to note was be that Britain was plan to make all equipment on island. Was no plan for to make factorys in Dominions or Empire. Priority for decision was be to keep all industrys on island. Priority was for to keep island in control position of empire was not to build army and industry for to win long war with Germany. ...
This deserves deeper examination. A study of of the US aircraft industry and military aircraft development shows significant orders for US made aircraft were placed when the Neutrality Acts were altered during the autumn of 1939. The use of foreign industry seems to have been part of the plan to avoid over investment in UK positioned arms manufacture.
I not understand what mean 'surge' in your context.

I agree it was be interested question for why Britain was decide to buy from Amerika and not decide for to build factorys in Dominions and empire. Perhaps was not be one answer but was be mix for many policys and prioritys.

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Re: British Mobilization Plans 1941-43

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 28 Apr 2020 05:14

Ружичасти Слон wrote:
26 Apr 2020 17:57
Carl Schwamberger wrote:
26 Apr 2020 16:58
Thanks for this. Where should I look for the surge of your quotes?
I not understand what mean 'surge' in your context.
Source was the intended word.

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Re: British Mobilization Plans 1941-43

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 28 Apr 2020 05:59

Here is a partial list of the British ground combat divisions I scratched together a few years ago. Any corrections or reliable sources would be welcome.

I'm counting 35 of these units formed, with one disbanded in 1941 & seven more disbanded in 1943. That leaves 27 standing 1944-45. Three appear to have remained training or 'Reserve' units through 1945, so 23 actually in combat 1944-45. Or 84% of the 32 intended. In this I don't know how the independent brigades should be counted.

1 Inf Formed in UK prewar. To Africa March 1943.
3 Inf Formed in UK prewar. To France June 1944.
4 Inf Formed in UK prewar. To Africa March 1943
5 Inf Formed in UK prewar. To india May 1942. ME Aug 1942. To Sicily July 1943. To NW Europe 1945
6 Inf Formed in Egypt 1939. Palestine & India March 1940. To Egypt Oct 1941. to India March 1942. Disolved 1943.
15 Inf Formed in UK Sept 1939. To France June 1944
38 Inf Formed Sept 1939. Sept 1944 redesignated 38 Reserve
43 Inf Formed from Territorial Div 1939. To France June 1944
44 Inf Formed from Territorial Div 1939. To Egypt July 1942. Disbanded Dec 1943
46 Inf Formed in UK Oct 1939. To Africa Jan1943. To Italy Sept 1943
47 Inf Formed Nov 1940 from 2 London div. Dispersed Aug 1944
48 Inf Territorial Div to Dec 1942. Designated Reserve to end of war.
49 Inf Reformed in UK June 1940. to France 12 June 1944.
50 Inf From Territorial Div. To Egypt June 1941. To Lybia/Tunisia Feb 1942. To Sicily Uly 1943. To UK Oct 1943.
To France June 1944.

51 Inf To Egypt Aug 1942. To UK July 1943. To France June 1944
52 Inf In UK from 1939. To France Oct 1944.
53 Inf In UK from 1939. To France June 1944
54 Inf In UK from 1939. Disbanded Dec 1943
55 Inf Remained in UK entire war
56 Inf To Iraq Nov 1942. To Egypt March 1943. to Italy Sept 1943
59 Inf Formed in UK. 1939 to France June 1944
78 Inf Formed in UK May 1942. to Africa Nov 1942. To Italy Sept 1943

Guards Armored Formed June 1941
1 Arm Fomed prewar. To Egypt November 1941. to Italy May 1944
2 Arm Formed Dec 1939. Used to rebuild 7th Arm Jan 1941. Disolved 1941
6 Arm Formed Sept 1940 in UK. To Egypt Jan 1941. to Italy March 1944
7th Arm Formed Egypt 1939. To Italy Sept 1943. to UK Dec 1943
8th Arm Formed UK Nov 1940. to Egypt July 42. Disolved Jan 1943.
9th Arm Formed UK Dec 1940. remained there & was disbanded July 1944
10th Arm Formed in Palestine Aug 1941. to Egypt April 1942. To Palestine Jan 1943
11 Arm Formed in UK March 1941. remained there until to France in June 1944
42 Arm Formed in UK Nov 1941. Disolved Oct 1943
79 Arm Formed Aug 1942 as admin HQ for units of specialist vehicles.

1 Para Formed 1941. Move to Africa March/April 1943. Two brigades returned to UK Dec 1943.
6th Para Formed May 1943. To France in 1944

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Re: British Mobilization Plans 1941-43

Post by Kingfish » 28 Apr 2020 10:26

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
28 Apr 2020 05:59
51 Inf To Egypt Aug 1942. To UK July 1943. To France June 1944
A minor nit-pick.
The 51st Highland participated in Operation Husky and fought thru the entire Sicilian campaign. Later it's artillery added fire support for Operation Baytown, so at least part of the division was still in the Med theater as late as Sept '43.
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Re: British Mobilization Plans 1941-43

Post by Andy H » 28 Apr 2020 12:13

Ружичасти Слон wrote:
26 Apr 2020 17:57
Carl Schwamberger wrote:
26 Apr 2020 16:58
Thanks for this. Where should I look for the surge of your quotes?
Ружичасти Слон wrote:
26 Apr 2020 12:01
... Important for to note was be that Britain was plan to make all equipment on island. Was no plan for to make factorys in Dominions or Empire. Priority for decision was be to keep all industrys on island. Priority was for to keep island in control position of empire was not to build army and industry for to win long war with Germany. ...
This deserves deeper examination. A study of of the US aircraft industry and military aircraft development shows significant orders for US made aircraft were placed when the Neutrality Acts were altered during the autumn of 1939. The use of foreign industry seems to have been part of the plan to avoid over investment in UK positioned arms manufacture.
I not understand what mean 'surge' in your context.

I agree it was be interested question for why Britain was decide to buy from Amerika and not decide for to build factorys in Dominions and empire. Perhaps was not be one answer but was be mix for many policys and prioritys.
Hi

Simple answer is lack of funds, plus some geographical and infrastructure facets coming into play.
Was there a political aspect(s), sure, but there always are and there not always for nefarious reasons.

Regards

Andy h

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Re: British Mobilization Plans 1941-43

Post by Ружичасти Слон » 28 Apr 2020 12:20

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
28 Apr 2020 05:14
Ружичасти Слон wrote:
26 Apr 2020 17:57
Carl Schwamberger wrote:
26 Apr 2020 16:58
Thanks for this. Where should I look for the surge of your quotes?
I not understand what mean 'surge' in your context.
Source was the intended word.
Now make sense. Thank you.

Churchill quote was be in Parliament speech 4.june 1940. You can to find transcripts for all Parliament speech on official publication Hansard.

Quote about divisions and plans was be from book Raising Churchill's Army by David French. Also from same book.
By March 1941, their target had risen to fifty-nine and one-third ‘equivalent divisions’, a figure that included a much higher proportion of armour—twelve armoured divisions and eight army tank brigades—than hitherto.9 The final plan, FFC-36, prepared in May 1941, envisaged a field force by March 1942 of forty-seven infantry divisions, twelve armoured divisions, and eight independent tank brigades. Of this, the British were expected to find twenty-seven infantry divisions, ten armoured and seven independent tank brigades. The remainder was to be furnished by India, the Dominions, and the exiled allies.10
For more datas for to understand better ideas problems and decisions is best to read primary evidences. I can to propose CAB23 series from British archives for to understand things until start war. I was download all documents from internet few years ago.

From my notes
Plan for 32 divisions on field army from British island was make spring 1939. 32 divisions was for to be : 22 infantry 6 motor 3 armored 1 cavalry

Infantry
Regular army : 1 2 3 4
1st line ta : 42 43 44 48 49 51 52 53 54
2nd line ta : 9 12 15 18 38 45 46 61 66

Motor
1st line ta : 50 55 56
2nd line ta : 23 47 59

Armored
Regular and ta mix : 1 2 3

Cavalry
1st line ta : 1

Also was be 5 independent army tank brigades mix regular and ta : 1 21 23 34 25

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Re: British Mobilization Plans 1941-43

Post by Aber » 28 Apr 2020 13:25

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
28 Apr 2020 05:59
Here is a partial list of the British ground combat divisions I scratched together a few years ago. Any corrections or reliable sources would be welcome.
Wiki link to help cross-check

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_B ... rld_War_II

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Re: British Mobilization Plans 1941-43

Post by Andy H » 28 Apr 2020 15:03

Hi

There's more information about the various divisions here:-
viewtopic.php?f=114&t=67514

Regards

Andy H

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Re: British Mobilization Plans 1941-43

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 28 Apr 2020 19:18

Kingfish wrote:
28 Apr 2020 10:26
Carl Schwamberger wrote:
28 Apr 2020 05:59
51 Inf To Egypt Aug 1942. To UK July 1943. To France June 1944
A minor nit-pick.
The 51st Highland participated in Operation Husky and fought thru the entire Sicilian campaign. Later it's artillery added fire support for Operation Baytown, so at least part of the division was still in the Med theater as late as Sept '43.
Just following HQ at this point. Sorting out brigades & battalions is too deep in the weeds for my purposes here.

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Re: British Mobilization Plans 1941-43

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 29 Apr 2020 02:03

Ружичасти Слон wrote:
28 Apr 2020 12:20
...
Quote about divisions and plans was be from book Raising Churchill's Army by David French. Also from same book.
Хвала

I'll have to obtain a copy. I am assuming there is mention of plans for air and naval forces as well?

In the mix for motorized/mechanized ground force one can clearly see the prewar theories at work. Specific motorized infantry divisions were something proposed, tested, and a abandoned by the vehicle rich Commonwealth and US armies.

Motor
1st line ta : 50 55 56
2nd line ta : 23 47 59

Armored
Regular and ta mix : 1 2 3

One minor point concerns the Reserve divisions that functioned as a training and replacement pool. Was there a similar role or unit in this plan? Did any of those shown, perhaps of the 2d Line TA to fill that role?

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Re: British Mobilization Plans 1941-43

Post by Ружичасти Слон » 29 Apr 2020 12:29

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
29 Apr 2020 02:03

Хвала

I'll have to obtain a copy. I am assuming there is mention of plans for air and naval forces as well?

In the mix for motorized/mechanized ground force one can clearly see the prewar theories at work. Specific motorized infantry divisions were something proposed, tested, and a abandoned by the vehicle rich Commonwealth and US armies.

Motor
1st line ta : 50 55 56
2nd line ta : 23 47 59

Armored
Regular and ta mix : 1 2 3

One minor point concerns the Reserve divisions that functioned as a training and replacement pool. Was there a similar role or unit in this plan? Did any of those shown, perhaps of the 2d Line TA to fill that role?
Нема на чему

Book Raising Churchill's Army is about British army from island. Not about British navy or British airforce. Not about empire or Dominions. Very good book about problems for doctrine for to apply doctrine and for commanding.

I can to propose also some books by Professor David Edgerton ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_E ... historian) ). Also book Fighting the Peoples War by Jonathon Fennell have some good datas for mobilizations of peoples in Dominions and India.

Best datas and evidences can to find in primary evidences like CAB23.

Doctrine and theory for motorized divisions was not exist. They was create when was expand AA defences and was take 1 brigade for to make more AA units. After was create infantry division with 2 brigades was decide what for to do. There was be some ideas for to fight with tank forces but was not fixed concept and everybody was have different ideas what was to do.

On 1939 and 1940 every divisions was be training division and every division was be fighting division. Concept was be for each commander division to train own troops and fight with troops. Please to remember Britain was plan to use field army not until 1942 and to fight on short times with France to finish Germany. So all divisions was training divisions then at one moment all become fighting divisions to win war.

In real history France was surrender in june 1940 and plan was must to change. But concept for win war was not change. Only change was France was change for to Amerika.

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Re: British Mobilization Plans 1941-43

Post by Ружичасти Слон » 13 May 2020 18:18

Carl Schwamberger wrote:
29 Apr 2020 02:03

Хвала
I was forget for to write about book Gibbs, Grand Strategy Vol.I Rearmament Policy and also CAB24 CAB65 CAB66

All have datas for army airforce and navy.

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