Good spot, mea culpa! I went back to original PDF and under a stamp I found that it was actually W.T.C.
That should make my search a bit easier...

Regards
Tom
Hang on Tiger!!So we have TWO references to both K5s and K6s....but plenty in lots of places for K5s being worn, going U/S, being tested, worked on, withdrawnlate August -> September and reissued other B vehicles instead of.etc., etc....
Absolutely.Be interesting to know how many NON-wading, NON-waterproofed K5s were sent to France in the same period...!
I'll post up a couple of other lines about the success of Wading Trials here - there are references to some on the second page of the DMW W/P Committee Meeting from 5 May 44. These show that the Austin "wading problem" was by no means the only headache for the W/P Committee.I'd have loved to be a fly on the harbour wall THAT day, with K5s dropping like...well, flies!
This may be entirely apochryphal...or it may be pertinent. I wonder how we could find out if Austins were or weren't among those manufacturers whose products needed modification for MT 80?The volume “Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers, Vol 2 – Technical” (WO277/24) includes a section on fuels (pp211-3) - my edits in [ ] :
“The Grade III petrol which was in common use at the beginning of the War gave, on the whole, little trouble in both ‘A’ and ‘B’ vehicles. [ .....] “ It then goes on -
1942
MT 80 fuel, with a lead content of 3.6cc per imperial gallon, was substituted in 1942 for MT 87 for American tank engines, which necessitated modifications to reduce the compression ratio of certain American engines in use with British forces. Difficulties due to gum formation in the petrol system of vehicles became a troublesome factor, particularly with vehicles in store, and a great deal of investigation was carried out by REME in conjunction with RASC and RAOC Vehicle Storage Depots on this problem. Additives to the petrol were tried but without conclusive results. The effects observed were choked filters, sticking valves, corrosion etc.
1943
MT 80 petrol was introduced for British engines, and very soon reports poured into the DME War Office from various theatres of war of very serious troubles, the chief of which were burning of valves, mainly on ‘B’ vehicles and charging sets.
[Para on charging sets omitted]
In the case of ‘B’ vehicles, the trouble was mainly confined to certain makes and types for which modifications were made to exhaust valves and guides for operation on leaded fuel. Valves manufactured from an alloy steel containing 20% of chromium (instead of the usual 8%) were introduced as rapidly as possible to increase the life of engines between overhauls.
{Para on 80 octane petrol in AFV’s omitted]
It will be seen from the above that the whole problem of octane fuel values of petrol available for issue resulted in an immense amount of modification and additional maintenance work for REME, a serious interference with the operational functioning of small and ‘B’ vehicle engines and the additional complication of the supply problem in the field.”
Unfortunately none of this is more closely dated, nor are the vehicles most affected named, so I may be pointing up a blind alley !
LOL I wasn't talking about them being withdrawn en masse, I meant that we've seen lots of little/brief entries here and there stating those VARIOUS things and issues about the K5 through late summer and early autumn '44Hang on Tiger!!
We don't have a reference to them being "withdrawn" per se, what we have is a reference to a relatively large number being passed in a block to the Advanced Base Workshops on the Continent for repair.
O I can just imagine!I'll post up a couple of other lines about the success of Wading Trials here - there are references to some on the second page of the DMW W/P Committee Meeting from 5 May 44. These show that the Austin "wading problem" was by no means the only headache for the W/P Committee.
RegardsM.T.80 fuel was introduced in North Africa in November, 1942, but was not brought into use in this country until March, 1943. Considerable complaints had been received from North Africa as to the effect of the use of this fuel on ‘B’ vehicle engines and more frequent top overhauls required as a result. Owing to the later introduction of the fuel in this country, user experience was not available at that time and in order to get the fullest experience in the shortest time, an intensive user trial was initiated in June, 1943, using R.A.S.C. vehicles.
Hmm! Certainly reads as if the problem was impactful enough to warrant such action - which as we know ended in some manufacturers having to modify their engines to lesser or greater degrees....an intensive user trial was initiated in June, 1943, using R.A.S.C. vehicles.
Phylo, if you ever use the non-word "impactful" again, I shall crawl through the aether and strangle you in your sleep! I happen to work for the U.S. Government, which has apparently decided that is the favorite buzzword of this new century. Unfortunately, every time I see it, which is about a dozen times a day, I want to imitate poor Oedipus Rex and gouge my eyes out. Please, please, PLEASE! never do that to me again...phylo_roadking wrote:Hmm! Certainly reads as if the problem was impactful enough to warrant such action - which as we know ended in some manufacturers having to modify their engines to lesser or greater degrees.
Surely that depends on the outcome of those trials in 1943! Perhaps they identified the problem and fixed it ready for OVERLORD.BTW, have you not noticed that what you have now inferred from your investigation is actually a much LARGER and more PERVASIVE problem than "1,400 Austins with crock engines"?
Of course I am.Are you going hunting after details of that trial? Might be interesting to find out if there's any mention of problems with....or specifically mention of NO problems with...Austins' products!
Rich...possibly - possibly not; As Tom says, depends on what the trials showed...tho' we DO have those later, much more sanitised accounts of the problems etc. that MT80 threw up. It'll be interesting in seeing them "red in tooth and claw", as it were.Surely that depends on the outcome of those trials in 1943! Perhaps they identified the problem and fixed it ready for OVERLORD.BTW, have you not noticed that what you have now inferred from your investigation is actually a much LARGER and more PERVASIVE problem than "1,400 Austins with crock engines"?
Do you mean it might have been better if they had made greater use of American vehicles other than tanks, halftracks, and jeeps? I have always thought it remarkable that British sources say little about the Chrysler multibank and most seemed to find its peculiarities unremarkable, whereas the U.S. Army refused to touch it with a ten-foot pole.phylo_roadking wrote:Much as I would be the last person to point it up...that "much LARGER and more PERVASIVE problem" MIGHT just have something to do with that rather frequently-appearing word above!![]()
Well....one might venture that it was no worse than some of their "own" peculiarities...!I have always thought it remarkable that British sources say little about the Chrysler multibank and most seemed to find its peculiarities unremarkable, whereas the U.S. Army refused to touch it with a ten-foot pole.
At this point JUST commenting on the well-known problems of the British automotive industry...Do you mean it might have been better if they had made greater use of American vehicles other than tanks, halftracks, and jeeps?
I have to say that I'm not convinced from the thread so far that the problems with the Austins were even noteworthy as regards this particular vehicle, let alone with regard to the whole 21 AG logistics effort. It seems that history has made a mountain out of a molehill, though I suppose there is value in establishing that it was indeed a molehill.RichTO90 wrote: Of course that presumes that the American larder truly was inexhaustible, which is far from the truth. As I have tried to make clear before, the American logistical transport problems were not just about numbers of truck companies, it was also about the lack of production of heavy trucks, the shortage of tires, the shortage of spare parts, the shortage of maintenance capability, the lack of co-drivers, and the excessive weight, distance driven, and the poor roads driven on. Which is why I have always said that focusing on the real or imaginary problems of 1,400 vehicles is meaningless in terms of assessment of long-haul logistical capabilities. The only thing that can give a reasonable picture of that is the weekly/monthly vehicle maintenance states and accompanying reports. Those are very well reported for the U.S. forces, along with the maintenance problems, so warts and all. However, the 21st Army Group logistical report reminds me too much of the British official histories, all problems neatly glossed offer and no evidence to support a contrary point of view.
Which is exactly what I tasked myself with discovering...I have to say that I'm not convinced from the thread so far that the problems with the Austins were even noteworthy as regards this particular vehicle, let alone with regard to the whole 21 AG logistics effort. It seems that history has made a mountain out of a molehill, though I suppose there is value in establishing that it was indeed a molehill.
Regards9 September 1944
1300 Arrived Ath. Vehs parked and area prepared for work. Work drawn from 2 A Veh Park, by arrangements with C.REME 2 A Tps.
12 September 1944 Ath
Information received to effect that all “A” Veh repairs to be completed on a priority basis. Accordingly, work concentrated on “A” Vehs (mainly carriers).
Visit of DDOS 2 Army accompanied by ADOS 12 Corps reference priority of veh repairs.
14 September 1944 Ath
1700 Wks returns despatched. (Completed in week – “A” Vehs 36; “B” Vehs 32; Motor cycles 13; Tels Equipts 9; Instrs 8; MGs 1)
15 September 1944 Ath
1700 Visit of DADOS 12 and 30 Corps. Urgency of “A” Vehs further stressed. Forthwith, all resources of wksps concentrated on repair of “A” vehs. Working hours extended until dusk.
16 September 1944 Ath
All wksp repair concentrated on “A” Vehs. Record number of 39 “A” vehs completed in one day.
17 September 1944 Ath
0300 Message received from 2 A Veh Pk (verbal) that great effort to be made to complete all carriers, White Scout Cars, Halftracks and 3 tonners by midday.
1300 All vehs required completed with exception of a small no requiring major reps.
1700 2 A Veh Pk now collected vehs required.
1100 One Bedford Stores lorry caught fire. Cab completely burnt out. Stores undamaged.