Tank Destroyer Crews personal weapons M10, M18, M36

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Re: Tank Destroyer Crews personal weapons M10, M18, M36

Post by schutzearsch » 28 Nov 2022 20:28

Richard Anderson wrote:
22 Nov 2022 23:41
schutzearsch wrote:
22 Nov 2022 20:53
I managaed to find the 15 March T/O&E online 18-25 of the Tank Destroyer Btl. SP.
Interesting to me no M7 or M8 grenade launchers where shown so it seems to me the anti tank rifle grenades where also dropped.

Do you have any link to that mentioned T/O&E 18-37 of 1st September 1944. If only managed to find a T/O&E 18-35 it mentoiens 49 SMGs M3 for the Tank Destroyer Company. However it also has the M3 Halftracks repalced with M39 Armored Utlity Vehicles.
This change was propably never made (I'D doubt any M39 made it to Europe before the War ended) and Afaik towed Tank Destroyer Units where discontinued in 1945 and units in Europe switched to the M36s or M10s and M18s that became aviable from units that changed to M36s.
I don't think it did get there before the end of hostilities.
Thanks a lot.
I realized misunderstood you. There are 7 SMGs in the Platoon not the Company.

I think it's interessting that thetowed TD Company had 49 SMGs while the self propelled had none.
The Platoon Leader and Platoon Sergeant in the towed Unit where armed with SMGs while the Platoon Leader and Sergeant in the self propelled one where armed with Pistols.
Most interssting to me is the assistant leader in the Security Section being armed with an SMG in the towed unit compared to an rifle in the self propelled unit.
Olustee64 wrote:
22 Nov 2022 23:56
Battalion level T/O&Es are summaries and don't show GLs. You have to look at ones at company level.

T/O&E 18-27, c2, 6 January 1944, for the TD Co was published to make the switch from M1903 to M1 Rifles (among other changes). Of course it also replaced M1 GLs with M7. c2 also added 15 M8 GLs where none were authorized before. Neither type was available when the Jan '43 T/E was written.

To add further confusion, T/Os and T/Es were combined starting around Spring '43, but mixing the terms doesn't offend me all that much.
Tahnk you, I just now realized that there is a pattern with the Numbers ending with 5 are battalion Numbers ending with 7 are company level.
Gary Kennedy wrote:
24 Nov 2022 14:24
And to make it even more complicated, when Tables of Organization and Tables of Equipment were combined to make Tables of Organization and Equipment (T/O & Es), grenade launchers were detailed in Section II (Equipment), and not among the Ordnance items in Section I (Organization), which were themselves recapitulated in Section II.

I think there was a query above about the availability of grenade launchers in 1944, with seeming reference to the Rifle Squad/Platoon? The July 1943 T/O & E authorised three M7 launchers per Rifle Squad, one for the assistant leader and two for riflemen, with one for the Sergeant Guide in Platoon HQ. There was a note in the July 1943 table that M1903 rifles with M1 launchers could be issued in lieu on the same scale, which was deleted in the superseding Feb 1944 and June 1945 tables.

I can't pretend to know whether there was a significant shortfall in terms of M7 and M8 launchers until late 1944, I would have most likely assumed there was a sufficient supply for the Infantry at least by June 1944.

Olustee64 wrote:
28 Nov 2022 18:59
A 5 Jun 44 ETO shortage report shows both M1 and M7 GLs right at 90% of authorized levels. M8 GLs do not appear on the shortage report and, thus, were at or above 100% at that moment.

The focus on the rifle squad is a bit misdirected, as per the Jul 43 infantry regiment T/O&Es, about two thirds of GLs were for a regiment's companies outside the infantry battalions. And this ignores GLs authorized for pretty much any unit type expected to get near the combat zone.

With the extremely high operational losses for M7s in the ETO, were M7s scrounged from units less likely to need them? I dunno.
Good point with the rifle Squads AFAIK MG Team, MG Section and AT Gun Section leaders also had Grenade launchers according to TO&E.

According to this video GI History Handbook M7 Grenade launchers where shipped in high Numbers to the UK before D Day and while he thinks it is possible due to a local failure in logistics that not all units got them in time there where plenty aviable and Photos that show Soldiers with M1903 and M1 launcher during D Day show rear echelon troops most of the time.
Scince Tank Destroyer Units are clearly Combat Troops I'd say they where probably way up there in the priority list. Probably right after the Infantry?

On the other hand I've read on multiple sources that during D Day way more M7s got lost than expected so scince some TD Units did not arrive in france until late June, August or later would it be possible that some Units that had already received M7s got theirs temporaly taken away from them to deliver them to front line units?

Are there any shortage Reports for the ETO after Jun 1944?

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Re: Tank Destroyer Crews personal weapons M10, M18, M36

Post by Olustee64 » 30 Nov 2022 04:14

Every company in the Jul 43 Inf Regt was authorized GLs. Per capita, the regimental service company (a truck co) was authorized more M7 GLs than a rifle co. Neptune planning terminated T/O&E changes in Feb 44 for units not already updated. I don't know when this returned to normal. So, it's not just an availability issue. Photos are anecdotal evidence and prone to mislead as much as inform.

I have seen scattered ETO shortage reports, primarily in summer and fall.

You might enjoy George Forty's U.S. Army Handbook for its coverage of WWII unit organization basics. Under $10 on used book sites.

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