Vichy French army casualties in Case Anton 1942

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Kelvin
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Vichy French army casualties in Case Anton 1942

Post by Kelvin » 03 Sep 2021 06:47

When German started Case Anton on 09th Nov 1942, Vichy French Armistice Army had 6 x divisions, did they all were captured by German as POW and sent to labour camp or just disbanded them and sent back to their civilizan status ? Any data on casualties on them like killed, captured or wounded ? Thank

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Loïc
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Re: Vichy French army casualties in Case Anton 1942

Post by Loïc » 13 Sep 2021 16:31

hello

there were no fightings the 11th november 1942, nor 6 Divisions but 8 Military Divisions, also 2 Cavalry Brigades, the 7 AAA Groupements and the 173rd autonomous battalion in Corsica,
despiste it existed secret planned measures and weapons caches, it was a total disaster, the only reaction of the 16th Military Division of Montpellier leads the General de Lattre to his arrest and trial
there were deaths when the Germans wished to seize the Fleet in Toulon the following 27th november, the metropolitan Army was demobilised this day

once the Army was expelled from its own barracks manu militari the officers NCO's and others ranks knew several various and varied fate, placed in a special status congé d'Armistice that existed for cadres since the summer 1940, others demobilised and allowed to find a job, others joining the Chantiers de Jeunesse, the Police, forming the Résistance ORA, actually there were several arrests and deportations the following weeks and months, others trying to reach the French Army in North Africa passing by Spain and often ending in its internment camp until growing Allied pressures to release them, a small number kept full military status in the few liquidation and demobilizing services or in the last the units of the SGDA, former Air Ministry, in its passive defense salvage battalions and watching stations, the attempt to revive AAA in northern zone failed

Kelvin
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Re: Vichy French army casualties in Case Anton 1942

Post by Kelvin » 14 Sep 2021 09:19

Loïc wrote:
13 Sep 2021 16:31
hello

there were no fightings the 11th november 1942, nor 6 Divisions but 8 Military Divisions, also 2 Cavalry Brigades, the 7 AAA Groupements and the 173rd autonomous battalion in Corsica,
despiste it existed secret planned measures and weapons caches, it was a total disaster, the only reaction of the 16th Military Division of Montpellier leads the General de Lattre to his arrest and trial
there were deaths when the Germans wished to seize the Fleet in Toulon the following 27th november, the metropolitan Army was demobilised this day

once the Army was expelled from its own barracks manu militari the officers NCO's and others ranks knew several various and varied fate, placed in a special status congé d'Armistice that existed for cadres since the summer 1940, others demobilised and allowed to find a job, others joining the Chantiers de Jeunesse, the Police, forming the Résistance ORA, actually there were several arrests and deportations the following weeks and months, others trying to reach the French Army in North Africa passing by Spain and often ending in its internment camp until growing Allied pressures to release them, a small number kept full military status in the few liquidation and demobilizing services or in the last the units of the SGDA, former Air Ministry, in its passive defense salvage battalions and watching stations, the attempt to revive AAA in northern zone failed
Hi, Loic, thank for your help.

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Re: Vichy French army casualties in Case Anton 1942

Post by Sid Guttridge » 14 Sep 2021 17:32

Hi Guys,

Looking through 20+ year old notes I have the following for French losses during Lila:

"Also at 0510 the first of the escaping French submarines, the Casabianca, reached the twin booms that sealed the harbour mouth between St. Mandrier and a jetty running south from Point Mourillon. They were relieved to find that no German guns yet covered the gap and the tugs on watch, Dardennes and Gapeau, were persuaded to open the booms despite lack of orders from above. However, while the submarines waited they were spotted and dive-bombed by German aircraft and the Casabianca was damaged by a near miss. In response a French 13.2mm light anti-aircraft gun at the lighthouse on the end of the jetty opened up to protect them – the only one to do so throughout the night. It achieved its aim, as its fire was conspicuous in the darkness and drew on it the further attentions of the German planes, but the cost was high. The gun was struck by a bomb and four crewmen killed and eight wounded. It was the heaviest single loss of the night."

Also: "Casualties on both sides were light. The French lost 12 dead, including the four anti-aircraft gunners killed on the jetty, the officer killed on the Strasbourg by the German tank shell and several sailors killed by explosions during the scuttling. That there were no more was a tribute to the professionalism with which it was executed. The only German to die was shot in mistake for a British soldier." (I don't know by whom.)

I have commented elsewhere on AHF and Feldgrau about the moral courage of the AA gunners at the lighthouse. Isolated in their post, on the edge of an almost entirely German-occupied Europe and with no escape possibilities, they nevertheless seem to have been the only Vichy servicemen to take the initiative and actively fight back at the time against either Anton or Lila.

Loic, do we know their names?

There should be a memorial to them on the spot. Is there?

Cheers,

Sid

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Re: Vichy French army casualties in Case Anton 1942

Post by Kelvin » 15 Sep 2021 11:48

I am wondering if Hitler had any plan for take over of French fleet prior to Operation Lila. He had over many plans need a large number of warships, like capture of Malta, Gibraltar and invasion of England. when in Nov 1942, just in Toulon, French Fleet had 2 x battlecruiser Strasbourg and Dunkerque and old battleship Provence and also 7 x cruisers like Foch, Galissonniere, Glorie. Also 30 x destroyers and 15 x submarines plus several smaller ships like sloop or torpedo boats. This is the largest concentration of Fleet warships in one single location. Apart from this, second is Casablance. for other warships were distributed everywhere. like light cruiser Montcalm, training cruiser Joan of Arc and aircraft carrier Bearn were anchored in Martinque. And another cruiser at Saigon, IndoChina.

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Re: Vichy French army casualties in Case Anton 1942

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 15 Sep 2021 13:12

Kelvin wrote:
15 Sep 2021 11:48
I am wondering if Hitler had any plan for take over of French fleet prior to Operation Lila. He had over many plans need a large number of warships, like capture of Malta, Gibraltar and invasion of England. when in Nov 1942, just in Toulon, French Fleet had 2 x battlecruiser Strasbourg and Dunkerque and old battleship Provence and also 7 x cruisers like Foch, Galissonniere, Glorie. Also 30 x destroyers and 15 x submarines plus several smaller ships like sloop or torpedo boats. This is the largest concentration of Fleet warships in one single location. Apart from this, second is Casablance. for other warships were distributed everywhere. like light cruiser Montcalm, training cruiser Joan of Arc and aircraft carrier Bearn were anchored in Martinque. And another cruiser at Saigon, IndoChina.
How far such plans went I cant say. There were two difficulties, the first being training reliable crews. The existing French crews could not be depended on. A few ships crews had already deserted to the Allied side, and German security organizations were aware of more crew willing to desert with their ships should the opportunity emerge. Providing reliable French or German crews would require months for the small boats, and a year or more for the larger ships, to fully train a crew in their technical tasks.

A second problem would be reviving the support establishment ashore. Aside from ensuring politically reliable technicians and manager there would be the matter of competing with other organizations and manufacturing for the material to maintain the ships in combat condition. The French naval depots had become a supply source for German industry, taking tools and material. So, those were partially looted and incomplete.

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Loïc
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Re: Vichy French army casualties in Case Anton 1942

Post by Loïc » 15 Sep 2021 16:52

About the names of the sailors fallen in Toulon we can found them on Mémoires des Hommes

3 missing names

Louis Michel Marcel AUBRY
Mort pour la France le 27-11-1942 (Toulon, Var, France)
21-03-1924 à Thennes (Somme, France)
18 ans
matelot fusilier Défense Contre Avions (DCA) de Toulon tué à la Grande Jetée à son poste de combat

Roger Pierre Marie AUFFRET
Mort pour la France le 27-11-1942 (Toulon, Var, France)
21-03-1923 à Bubry (Morbihan, France)
19 ans
matelot mécanicien - torpilleur Adroit

Roger Henri BARBIER
Mort pour la France le 27-11-1942 (Toulon, Var, France)
02-07-1924 à Nanton (Saône-et-Loire, France)
18 ans
matelot Défense Contre Avions (DCA) de Toulon

Siméon Joseph Marius BERNARD
Mort pour la France le 27-11-1942 (Toulon, Var, France)
11-08-1922 à Hyères (Var, France)
20 ans
matelot Défense Contre Avions (DCA) de Toulon

Roland Paul BOUCHINET
Mort pour la France le 27-11-1942 (Toulon, Var, France)
09-03-1923 à Mouy (Oise, France)
19 ans
matelot - cuirassé Provence

Geogres Marie Dominique FAY
Mort pour la France le 27-11-1942 (Toulon, Var, France)
24-07-1913 à Havre (Le) (Seine-Maritime (ex Seine-Inférieure), France)
29 ans
Lieutenant de vaisseau - cuirassé Strasbourg

Marcel Edouard GODFRIN
Mort pour la France le 27-11-1942 (Toulon, Var, France)
04-06-1908 à Champs-sur-Marne (Seine-et-Marne, France)
34 ans
second maître mécanicien Défense Contre Avions (DCA) de Toulon

Roger Joseph JANET
Mort pour la France le 27-11-1942 (Saint-Mandrier-sur-Mer, Var, France)
30-01-1921 à Canet d'Aude (Aude, France)
21 ans
matelot Défense Contre Avions (DCA) de Toulon

Christian Marcel LAURENT
Mort pour la France le 27-11-1942 (Toulon, Var, France)
06-11-1924 à Mortagne sur Gironde (Charente-Maritime (ex Charente-Inférieure), France)
18 ans
apprenti-timonier - cuirassé Condorcet tué par un éclat de ferraille provenant de l'explosion du bâtiment "Dupleix"

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Re: Vichy French army casualties in Case Anton 1942

Post by Sid Guttridge » 16 Sep 2021 13:08

Hi Loic,

At least they are not entirely forgotten.

I think the DCA fatalities deserve a plaque on the site of their deaths.

Is it still difficult to get public recognition for men killed while technically serving Vichy?

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Vichy French army casualties in Case Anton 1942

Post by Loïc » 16 Sep 2021 14:02

hello

all the French soldiers are usually in the war memorials of the towns where they born or lived
Lieutenant de Vaisseau Fay is recorded in four plaques, two times in his city hall and church and and two times at Polytechnique Paris and Palaiseau

in this case I didn't find yet a specific nominative memorial for them despite there are a lot and for everything in France, so it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist somewhere in Toulon, maybe within the naval base but not at the city war memorial from what I have seen

in the region we have a war memorial of 1942 for 13 AA Artillerymen of the 253e Batterie 404e de DCA destined to renforce the Levant killed in the torpedoing of the Saint Didier the 4th july 1941 in Antalya bay

Regards
Loïc

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