Question on formation of 17e DI 1940

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Kelvin
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Question on formation of 17e DI 1940

Post by Kelvin » 26 Jun 2021 11:34

Hello, we knew that 17e DI was never formed in 1940 Western Campaign, but original planning is put 22e and 23e Foreign Volunteer Legion Regiments so maybe only send one more G.U.I. so to complete all three infantry regiments but why they prefer to send 22e to 19eDI to replace 71e RI and sent 23e to somewhere and let remnant of other units to build 17e DLI, what are their reason for that ? Thank

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Loïc
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Re: Question on formation of 17e DI 1940

Post by Loïc » 26 Jun 2021 16:25

hello

I would say probably because it is missing more than only one reduced G.U.I. who would not be enough to complete it, in particular for the bulk the Divisional Infantry having only the 22e RMVE available the 10th may 1940
the reduced and training G.U.I. were not destined to complete divisions, the G.U.I. converted into regiments joining and forming new light improvised divisions such the DLI, this also occured later in the emergency at the end of may/early june

the 23e RMVE should be completed by the 1st july 1940, raised not before 31st may 1940, when it was already decided to renunce to the 17e DI, and entering into campaign on reduced-2 battalions
both 22e and 23e RMVE were not Foreign Legion regiments but March Volunteer Foreign Regiments,

so the 17e DI was raised and should be ready for the 31st march 1940 but it was firstly delayed given that personnel and material were withdrawn to renforce the CEFS destined to Norway and then never completed by lacking elements not yet raised/not yet ready or passed to others divisions, as the 6e RI from 1ere DIC joined the 44e DI the 5th may instead of the 17e DI...

Kelvin
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Re: Question on formation of 17e DI 1940

Post by Kelvin » 27 Jun 2021 14:22

Loïc wrote:
26 Jun 2021 16:25
hello

I would say probably because it is missing more than only one reduced G.U.I. who would not be enough to complete it, in particular for the bulk the Divisional Infantry having only the 22e RMVE available the 10th may 1940
the reduced and training G.U.I. were not destined to complete divisions, the G.U.I. converted into regiments joining and forming new light improvised divisions such the DLI, this also occured later in the emergency at the end of may/early june

the 23e RMVE should be completed by the 1st july 1940, raised not before 31st may 1940, when it was already decided to renunce to the 17e DI, and entering into campaign on reduced-2 battalions
both 22e and 23e RMVE were not Foreign Legion regiments but March Volunteer Foreign Regiments,

so the 17e DI was raised and should be ready for the 31st march 1940 but it was firstly delayed given that personnel and material were withdrawn to renforce the CEFS destined to Norway and then never completed by lacking elements not yet raised/not yet ready or passed to others divisions, as the 6e RI from 1ere DIC joined the 44e DI the 5th may instead of the 17e DI...

Hello, Loic, thank so much four detailed answer. I would like to know they built 8e DI and 17e DI so slowly than other divisions because reorganization of French infantry regiments in post WWI, I think cadre regiments of 8e, 17e,33e, 34e, 39e, 40e and 46e DI were abolished in this period ? Thank

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Loïc
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Re: Question on formation of 17e DI 1940

Post by Loïc » 27 Jun 2021 21:50

hello

the perspective is not at divisional-level but higher at regional-level for the consequences concerning the Divisions

so such explanation can be only valid for the 17e DI associated to an area where 9e and 12e Region were merged which some former active infantry regiments remained inactived in september 1939 (4 missing regiments from the former 9e Région counting one becoming RIF)
and even much more obvious for the 17e Région with both inactived 33e & 34e DI, there the former 8 RI were reduced to the only 14e RI of Toulouse and 11e RI passed to the Reserve - missing 6 of the 8 RI - (the 7e RI was raised the following month in october but having no longer something to do with 17e Région)

but certainly not right for both northeastern 39e & 40e DI where the great number of RI in the Northeast is more than enough to say the least, not only all were kept and reactived but even renforced with further regiments not belonging to these regions in 1914, however mainly were converted into - misleading "undivisioned" - Fortress Infantry Regiments of the Fortified Sectors of the Maginot Line explaining the lack of infantry divisions, the 41 RIF are equivalent to the divisional infantry of ~14 divisions, the Fortified Sectors replacing conventional Divisions here

the 46e DI is only a wartime division not raised before 1916 from Chasseurs, kept after the Armistice for the occupation in Upper Silesia and disbanded in 1922

the 8e DI is more unclear, not missing regiments in 1939 among the former active infantry units from this region, I would say it looks like the game of the musical chairs among the traditional divisional n° caused by the new RMP Military Region of Paris whose territory and regiments were previously shared between 3e 4e 5e Région (5e 6e; 7e 8e; 9e 10e DI) because curiously it was raised the 41e DI initially from 7e Région in 1914 instead of the 8e DI who would have been rather logical in such area while the 7e Région reactived the 47e DI instead of its 41e DI...
The Lord works in mysterious ways...

Kelvin
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Re: Question on formation of 17e DI 1940

Post by Kelvin » 28 Jun 2021 07:14

Loïc wrote:
27 Jun 2021 21:50
hello

the perspective is not at divisional-level but higher at regional-level for the consequences concerning the Divisions

so such explanation can be only valid for the 17e DI associated to an area where 9e and 12e Region were merged which some former active infantry regiments remained inactived in september 1939 (4 missing regiments from the former 9e Région counting one becoming RIF)
and even much more obvious for the 17e Région with both inactived 33e & 34e DI, there the former 8 RI were reduced to the only 14e RI of Toulouse and 11e RI passed to the Reserve - missing 6 of the 8 RI - (the 7e RI was raised the following month in october but having no longer something to do with 17e Région)

but certainly not right for both northeastern 39e & 40e DI where the great number of RI in the Northeast is more than enough to say the least, not only all were kept and reactived but even renforced with further regiments not belonging to these regions in 1914, however mainly were converted into - misleading "undivisioned" - Fortress Infantry Regiments of the Fortified Sectors of the Maginot Line explaining the lack of infantry divisions, the 41 RIF are equivalent to the divisional infantry of ~14 divisions, the Fortified Sectors replacing conventional Divisions here

the 46e DI is only a wartime division not raised before 1916 from Chasseurs, kept after the Armistice for the occupation in Upper Silesia and disbanded in 1922

the 8e DI is more unclear, not missing regiments in 1939 among the former active infantry units from this region, I would say it looks like the game of the musical chairs among the traditional divisional n° caused by the new RMP Military Region of Paris whose territory and regiments were previously shared between 3e 4e 5e Région (5e 6e; 7e 8e; 9e 10e DI) because curiously it was raised the 41e DI initially from 7e Région in 1914 instead of the 8e DI who would have been rather logical in such area while the 7e Région reactived the 47e DI instead of its 41e DI...
The Lord works in mysterious ways...
Hello, Loic, thank so much for your detailed answer. Very helpful. May I ask in World War One period, did French have raise a division exclusively from Corsica Island ? I only see in WWII, 44e DI had one Corsican Alpine regiment.

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Loïc
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Re: Question on formation of 17e DI 1940

Post by Loïc » 28 Jun 2021 13:20

hello
such regiment is "Corsican" in the meaning as coming from Corsica but as the others active regiments I don't think recruited exclusively from Corsican conscripts
in august 1914 Corsica lost all its regiments, both 173e and 373e RI left the island for the Northeast and even until the 116e Territorial for Tunisia...

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Re: Question on formation of 17e DI 1940

Post by Kelvin » 28 Jun 2021 13:46

Loïc wrote:
28 Jun 2021 13:20
hello
such regiment is "Corsican" in the meaning as coming from Corsica but as the others active regiments I don't think recruited exclusively from Corsican conscripts
in august 1914 Corsica lost all its regiments, both 173e and 373e RI left the island for the Northeast and even until the 116e Territorial for Tunisia...
Hello, Loic, thank so much for your help.

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