I was hoping someone may have some insight on the function of the French army Training Battalions--which I believe were administered by the Infantry War Depots and grouped in Groups of Training Units (GUIs), specifically:
• Did the Infantry Training Battalions act as instruction battalions training recruits not part of the battalion, or were these Training Battalion comprised of enlisted recruits training to fill the positions in the battalion? For example, Lee Sharpe describes the organization of the Infantry Training Battalions (Volume 3, pp. 140-141 of The French Army 1939-1940) as having three rifle companies and one support company. Were all the enlisted men in these companies recruits training as rifle men, mortar crew, etc., or rather were these men trained soldiers instructing recruits who were not part of the training battalion and therefore not listed in the table of organization (i.e., instead who were being trained by the battalion instead of in the battalion)? I know that the initial Infantry Training Battalions was comprised largely of Disponibles reserves, but wasn’t sure if they were being used as instructors or instead getting refresher training.
• If the Infantry Training Battalions were comprised of recruits being trained, then when those soldiers were done training were they then typically transferred from the Infantry Training Battalion to combat units (via the War Depot or otherwise), leaving the battalion staff and company officers and NCOs to train a new set of recruits? Or did the Training Battalion convert into an actual battalion of that arm, and sent as a whole battalion to comprise a new unit? Or did the Training Unit become a Battalion de Passage, transferring all men to the field army for individual solders to distributed to units needing replacements as needed? I know that in the crisis in May and June many GUIs were thrown into the frontline as combat units, but my question is more about how these Infantry Training Battalions were intended to work.
With respect to the training of cavalry troops, were there Cavalry Training Battalions or Squadrons in which cavalry troops received their initial training similar to Infantry Training Battalions? Or did Cavalry troops receive their initial training at the Cavalry Organization Centers (at Saumer, Angers, Fontervault, and Monthlery) similar to Transport troops at the Motor and Horse Drawn Organization Centers?
Training Battalions
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Loïc
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Re: Training Battalions
hello
I don't have a lot of details about the everyday military life of these battalions but some points
the Training Battalions (numbered XXIst or even XXIIth Battalion/Regt) were not part of the War Depots,
the fact they were rattached to the Infantry War Depots was common to all infantry units, each unit having a mutual depot shared with others units
don't mix the "training" companies for youngs conscripts belonging as organic units of the Infantry Depots with these separate/autonomous Training Battalions who didn't follow the regiments from which they had been numbered
the Depots and their own training companies remained fixed in their regions while the independant Training Battalions left them to join and renforce the Armies of the North and Northeast, many of them were in the Maginot Line Fortified Sectors
the same for the Bataillons de Passage (rather Groups of Companies in the Infantry) these passage units formed the other part of the Infantry Depots, they are not related with Training Battalions others than individuals cases
these Training Battalions were formed from men, conscripts or young or older reservists, already 'trained" at least basically, the youngs recruits called for the active military service in 1939-1940 didn't join directly at all this kind of unit, so it was rather "refreshing training" as you wrote than anything else I think
they were not all grouped, for instance the XXI/5e RI was the guard battalion of the GQG of la Ferté-sous-Jouarre,
Pierre Brossolette reserve captain in this battalion wrote in his diary the 17th may 1940
we should not have moved as our means are so weak and our men have little training
the battalion is described as from rappelés a french word to name conscripts or more exactly fresh reservists recalled few time after their active military service (the "disponibles")
at one date, around march 1940 from memory, 300 of these men were distributed in the 3 infantry regiments of a serie B division the 71e DI
There is no equivalent for Cavalry contrary to existing Tanks, Artillery, Engineers "Training" units, the basic primary military training exactly as Infantry and others arms was within Cavalry Depots Squadrons, the units entitled "Organisation Centers" are rather centers to complete and refit already trained men and material for combat units
Regards
Loïc Lilian
I don't have a lot of details about the everyday military life of these battalions but some points
the Training Battalions (numbered XXIst or even XXIIth Battalion/Regt) were not part of the War Depots,
the fact they were rattached to the Infantry War Depots was common to all infantry units, each unit having a mutual depot shared with others units
don't mix the "training" companies for youngs conscripts belonging as organic units of the Infantry Depots with these separate/autonomous Training Battalions who didn't follow the regiments from which they had been numbered
the Depots and their own training companies remained fixed in their regions while the independant Training Battalions left them to join and renforce the Armies of the North and Northeast, many of them were in the Maginot Line Fortified Sectors
the same for the Bataillons de Passage (rather Groups of Companies in the Infantry) these passage units formed the other part of the Infantry Depots, they are not related with Training Battalions others than individuals cases
these Training Battalions were formed from men, conscripts or young or older reservists, already 'trained" at least basically, the youngs recruits called for the active military service in 1939-1940 didn't join directly at all this kind of unit, so it was rather "refreshing training" as you wrote than anything else I think
they were not all grouped, for instance the XXI/5e RI was the guard battalion of the GQG of la Ferté-sous-Jouarre,
Pierre Brossolette reserve captain in this battalion wrote in his diary the 17th may 1940
we should not have moved as our means are so weak and our men have little training
the battalion is described as from rappelés a french word to name conscripts or more exactly fresh reservists recalled few time after their active military service (the "disponibles")
at one date, around march 1940 from memory, 300 of these men were distributed in the 3 infantry regiments of a serie B division the 71e DI
There is no equivalent for Cavalry contrary to existing Tanks, Artillery, Engineers "Training" units, the basic primary military training exactly as Infantry and others arms was within Cavalry Depots Squadrons, the units entitled "Organisation Centers" are rather centers to complete and refit already trained men and material for combat units
Regards
Loïc Lilian
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gregorianchant
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Re: Training Battalions
Hello Loïc,
Thank you so much for your answer! This really clears up my confusion as to where primary infantry training took place and as to the role of the war depot as opposed to the infantry training battalion. It also answers my question as to cavalry training.
If I am not asking too much, would you comment on my below understanding/guesses of the primary training for the other arms:
• Artillery. I see there were 12 Artillery Training Centers, each which was associated with a Group Artillery Instruction Batteries staff, and a variable number of artillery instruction batteries. Lee Sharpe states they were for "[t]he Training of artillerymen for new units and as replacements" (Sharpe, Vol IV, p. 55). I take this to mean initial/primary artillery training for new artillerymen was done at these Artillery Training Centers in the instruction batteries. I assume it was done this way instead of at individual artillery war depots (as with infantry) because the need to have artillery pieces and artillery ranges where the artillery could be fired made centralization more important. And I am guessing that Artillery Depots did not store artillery pieces, but rather those would have been stored at the Artillery Training Centers and Artillery Organization Centers? Is my understanding here on target?
• Engineer. I see that the Engineer War Depots had an Instruction Battalion staff with at least one (and perhaps a variable number) of instruction companies; and that the Engineer War Depots were "responsible for the training and delivery of new recruits to engineer units in the field" (Sharpe, Vol VI, part 1, p. 132). I also see that there were 7 Engineer Training Battalions that "undertook the training of engineer troops" (Sharpe, Vol VI, part 1, p. 28). Was the primary training of artillerymen done at the Engineer War Depots in its Instruction Battalions, and did the separate Engineer Training Battalions serve a role similar to the Infantry Training Battalions?
• Transport. According to Sharpe, there was a reorganization at the end of December 1939 in which the Transport Depots were relieved of “the training of personnel assigned to the depot” and became responsible for supplying personnel only and to administering the transport units assigned to the depot; the Motor Organization Centers (CORA) and Horse-Drawn Transport Organization Centers (COHT) became responsible for forming transport units and delivery of reinforcements (Sharpe, Vol VI, part 3, pp. 144, 158, 161). I took that to mean the primary training was moved from the Transport Depots to the CORA and COHT starting in January 1940, or did primary training continue to take place at the Training Depots with more advanced training at the CORAs and COHTs?
• Tank. I know that there were Tank Training Battalions formed, but according to Lee Sharpe these weren’t formed until April 1940 (Sharpe, Vol III, p. 190). Did these Tank Training Battalions serve a role more like Infantry Training Battalions with the primary tank crew training taking place at the Tank War Depots in tank instruction companies or battalions?
Thank you in advance for any insights!
Best regards,
Greg
Thank you so much for your answer! This really clears up my confusion as to where primary infantry training took place and as to the role of the war depot as opposed to the infantry training battalion. It also answers my question as to cavalry training.
If I am not asking too much, would you comment on my below understanding/guesses of the primary training for the other arms:
• Artillery. I see there were 12 Artillery Training Centers, each which was associated with a Group Artillery Instruction Batteries staff, and a variable number of artillery instruction batteries. Lee Sharpe states they were for "[t]he Training of artillerymen for new units and as replacements" (Sharpe, Vol IV, p. 55). I take this to mean initial/primary artillery training for new artillerymen was done at these Artillery Training Centers in the instruction batteries. I assume it was done this way instead of at individual artillery war depots (as with infantry) because the need to have artillery pieces and artillery ranges where the artillery could be fired made centralization more important. And I am guessing that Artillery Depots did not store artillery pieces, but rather those would have been stored at the Artillery Training Centers and Artillery Organization Centers? Is my understanding here on target?
• Engineer. I see that the Engineer War Depots had an Instruction Battalion staff with at least one (and perhaps a variable number) of instruction companies; and that the Engineer War Depots were "responsible for the training and delivery of new recruits to engineer units in the field" (Sharpe, Vol VI, part 1, p. 132). I also see that there were 7 Engineer Training Battalions that "undertook the training of engineer troops" (Sharpe, Vol VI, part 1, p. 28). Was the primary training of artillerymen done at the Engineer War Depots in its Instruction Battalions, and did the separate Engineer Training Battalions serve a role similar to the Infantry Training Battalions?
• Transport. According to Sharpe, there was a reorganization at the end of December 1939 in which the Transport Depots were relieved of “the training of personnel assigned to the depot” and became responsible for supplying personnel only and to administering the transport units assigned to the depot; the Motor Organization Centers (CORA) and Horse-Drawn Transport Organization Centers (COHT) became responsible for forming transport units and delivery of reinforcements (Sharpe, Vol VI, part 3, pp. 144, 158, 161). I took that to mean the primary training was moved from the Transport Depots to the CORA and COHT starting in January 1940, or did primary training continue to take place at the Training Depots with more advanced training at the CORAs and COHTs?
• Tank. I know that there were Tank Training Battalions formed, but according to Lee Sharpe these weren’t formed until April 1940 (Sharpe, Vol III, p. 190). Did these Tank Training Battalions serve a role more like Infantry Training Battalions with the primary tank crew training taking place at the Tank War Depots in tank instruction companies or battalions?
Thank you in advance for any insights!
Best regards,
Greg
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Loïc
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Re: Training Battalions
hello
as with Infantry the same with such others Artillery and Engineers Training units could be applied, all these units were very far bo be enough for gather all the conscripts for an inital training,
the 21 regimental - understrength one third inferior to an infantry regiment - G.U.I represented more than 52 000 men,
the 12 GBI 15 000 artillerymen more,
the 9 BIG (7 more also both 598th and 698th Normal and Special Railway Engineers Training Battalions) 5094
grosso modo 75 000 with the cadres but in comparison the War Depots with their own passage and training units gathered until around 400 000 to 675 000 men maybe five to ten times more
the lately formed Tanks ones existed few weeks but there were also training companies in the Tanks Depots
the Engineer Depot n°6 of Angers raised the 566men 286th Training Engineers Battalion but in Angers there were until 6050 men including its own 3 Training Depots Battalions, there were more Sappers in this only one Depot than in the 9 independants Training Battalions
The War Depots were precisely regimental depots units raised instead of the existing active peactime regiments, directly within their garrisons and barracks to subsitute to them for the training of the conscripts obviously not possible with the wartime in september 1939, as the regiments were sent to the frontline and discharged to form fresh recruits coming in the barracks
Regards
Loïc
as with Infantry the same with such others Artillery and Engineers Training units could be applied, all these units were very far bo be enough for gather all the conscripts for an inital training,
the 21 regimental - understrength one third inferior to an infantry regiment - G.U.I represented more than 52 000 men,
the 12 GBI 15 000 artillerymen more,
the 9 BIG (7 more also both 598th and 698th Normal and Special Railway Engineers Training Battalions) 5094
grosso modo 75 000 with the cadres but in comparison the War Depots with their own passage and training units gathered until around 400 000 to 675 000 men maybe five to ten times more
the lately formed Tanks ones existed few weeks but there were also training companies in the Tanks Depots
the Engineer Depot n°6 of Angers raised the 566men 286th Training Engineers Battalion but in Angers there were until 6050 men including its own 3 Training Depots Battalions, there were more Sappers in this only one Depot than in the 9 independants Training Battalions
The War Depots were precisely regimental depots units raised instead of the existing active peactime regiments, directly within their garrisons and barracks to subsitute to them for the training of the conscripts obviously not possible with the wartime in september 1939, as the regiments were sent to the frontline and discharged to form fresh recruits coming in the barracks
Regards
Loïc
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gregorianchant
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Re: Training Battalions
Hello Loïc,
Thank you, I think I mostly understand now, and the information about the number of men being training by a GBI, GUI, and separately by the training depots is also very helpful.
So is it generally correct to say that the conscripts to be trained as artillery men who were not reservists being recalled and who had not been previously drafted/trained would generally be trained in an Artillery War Depot's Instruction Batteries, as opposed to in Artillery Instruction Batteries that were part of a Group of Artillery Instruction Batteries (to which an Artillery Training Centre was attached)? And that instead the Groups of Instruction Batteries were used generally with reservists artillerymen being recalled to active service? And that some reservists might receive training at a War Depot's Instruction Battery instead of at a Group's Artillery Instruction Battery?
Best regards,
Greg
Thank you, I think I mostly understand now, and the information about the number of men being training by a GBI, GUI, and separately by the training depots is also very helpful.
So is it generally correct to say that the conscripts to be trained as artillery men who were not reservists being recalled and who had not been previously drafted/trained would generally be trained in an Artillery War Depot's Instruction Batteries, as opposed to in Artillery Instruction Batteries that were part of a Group of Artillery Instruction Batteries (to which an Artillery Training Centre was attached)? And that instead the Groups of Instruction Batteries were used generally with reservists artillerymen being recalled to active service? And that some reservists might receive training at a War Depot's Instruction Battery instead of at a Group's Artillery Instruction Battery?
Best regards,
Greg
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Loïc
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Re: Training Battalions
There is the theory and there is the practise ~ realities
from a diary of a reservist mobilised in the XXIst Battalion 107e RI (class 1927 - born in 1907 = 32-33 years old in 1939-1940) who ilustrates some points
http://artethistoire.blogs.charentelibr ... 802137.pdf
13h September 1939 This unit is made up of young people from class 38 who have been recalled (...) there are a hundred of us with my age about 33 years
5th November 1939 left Angoulême for the Zone of the Armies in Champagne
3rd December 1939 A large reinforcement leaves the battalion - many young people and musicians - for the 307e RI
replaced early 1940 by A reinforcement comes from Angoulême : men of 40 years, many made the occupation in Germany at the end of the 1914-1918 war.
!...40 years old men...These ones should be in the Regional Territorial and Labour units
after March 1940 Then reinforcements left for the 107e and 213e RI, giving rise to moving farewells. We would have said that we had a presentiment of what was coming. Those who remain, the older ones, move patly at the CHR - Cie Hors Rang
Spring 1940 Young recruits, class 40, Parisians for the most part, arrive to complete the battalion
!..the class 40...fresh conscripts like that called early june 1940 under the flags should be in the Dépôt of Angoulême, most of the class 40 didn't see the battlefield, remaining even untrained unarmed in the Depots and captured like that in some garrisons of the Interior
Regards
Loïc L.
from a diary of a reservist mobilised in the XXIst Battalion 107e RI (class 1927 - born in 1907 = 32-33 years old in 1939-1940) who ilustrates some points
http://artethistoire.blogs.charentelibr ... 802137.pdf
13h September 1939 This unit is made up of young people from class 38 who have been recalled (...) there are a hundred of us with my age about 33 years
5th November 1939 left Angoulême for the Zone of the Armies in Champagne
3rd December 1939 A large reinforcement leaves the battalion - many young people and musicians - for the 307e RI
replaced early 1940 by A reinforcement comes from Angoulême : men of 40 years, many made the occupation in Germany at the end of the 1914-1918 war.
!...40 years old men...These ones should be in the Regional Territorial and Labour units
after March 1940 Then reinforcements left for the 107e and 213e RI, giving rise to moving farewells. We would have said that we had a presentiment of what was coming. Those who remain, the older ones, move patly at the CHR - Cie Hors Rang
Spring 1940 Young recruits, class 40, Parisians for the most part, arrive to complete the battalion
!..the class 40...fresh conscripts like that called early june 1940 under the flags should be in the Dépôt of Angoulême, most of the class 40 didn't see the battlefield, remaining even untrained unarmed in the Depots and captured like that in some garrisons of the Interior
Regards
Loïc L.
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gregorianchant
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Re: Training Battalions
Thank you Loïc, that is very helpful, both with respect to understanding the theory, and in understanding in practice that both avenues were used to train men.
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Kelvin
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Re: Training Battalions
Hi, Loic, may I ask if 282e, 283e and 287e Engineer Instruction battalions were raised by 6e Engineer Depot at Angers ?Loïc wrote: ↑24 Apr 2021 18:10hello
as with Infantry the same with such others Artillery and Engineers Training units could be applied, all these units were very far bo be enough for gather all the conscripts for an inital training,
the 21 regimental - understrength one third inferior to an infantry regiment - G.U.I represented more than 52 000 men,
the 12 GBI 15 000 artillerymen more,
the 9 BIG (7 more also both 598th and 698th Normal and Special Railway Engineers Training Battalions) 5094
grosso modo 75 000 with the cadres but in comparison the War Depots with their own passage and training units gathered until around 400 000 to 675 000 men maybe five to ten times more
the lately formed Tanks ones existed few weeks but there were also training companies in the Tanks Depots
the Engineer Depot n°6 of Angers raised the 566men 286th Training Engineers Battalion but in Angers there were until 6050 men including its own 3 Training Depots Battalions, there were more Sappers in this only one Depot than in the 9 independants Training Battalions
The War Depots were precisely regimental depots units raised instead of the existing active peactime regiments, directly within their garrisons and barracks to subsitute to them for the training of the conscripts obviously not possible with the wartime in september 1939, as the regiments were sent to the frontline and discharged to form fresh recruits coming in the barracks
Regards
Loïc
And Saint Laumer groupment was formed from Dragon Portes Organization Center, is it mean this center is located at Saint Laumer ? Thank
And G.U.I. 11-18, 20 helped form new divisions, but may I ask what combat role of G.U.I.1-10 in 1940 campaign ? thank
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Loïc
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Re: Training Battalions
hello
the Engineers Training Battalions were numbered from their Engineers Mobilisation Center/Depot + 280
so only the 286th came from Engineers Depot 6 in Angers while the 282e 283e 287e from Depots 2 - 3 and 7
Saint Laumer is the name of the commanding lieutenant-colonel of the C.O.D.P. as usual to identify this kind of provisional ad hoc groupements raised throughout june 1940, the C.O.D.P. was located also in Angers
GUI 1 followed Flanders Fortified Sector, lost in Dunkirk 4th june
GUI 2 with 103e DIF
GUI 3
GUI 4 with Groupement de Perrey
GUI 5
GUI 6 forming the 2nd Autonomous Brigade with GUI 7 and 15 until 1st june
GUI 7 became 144e RIA
GUI 8 with SF Altkirch surrender 19th and 21st june
GUI 9 with 82e DIA lost around 13th june
GUI 10
the Engineers Training Battalions were numbered from their Engineers Mobilisation Center/Depot + 280
so only the 286th came from Engineers Depot 6 in Angers while the 282e 283e 287e from Depots 2 - 3 and 7
Saint Laumer is the name of the commanding lieutenant-colonel of the C.O.D.P. as usual to identify this kind of provisional ad hoc groupements raised throughout june 1940, the C.O.D.P. was located also in Angers
GUI 1 followed Flanders Fortified Sector, lost in Dunkirk 4th june
GUI 2 with 103e DIF
GUI 3
GUI 4 with Groupement de Perrey
GUI 5
GUI 6 forming the 2nd Autonomous Brigade with GUI 7 and 15 until 1st june
GUI 7 became 144e RIA
GUI 8 with SF Altkirch surrender 19th and 21st june
GUI 9 with 82e DIA lost around 13th june
GUI 10
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Kelvin
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Re: Training Battalions
Hi, Loic, thank so much for your help. very helpful.Loïc wrote: ↑31 May 2021 02:03hello
the Engineers Training Battalions were numbered from their Engineers Mobilisation Center/Depot + 280
so only the 286th came from Engineers Depot 6 in Angers while the 282e 283e 287e from Depots 2 - 3 and 7
Saint Laumer is the name of the commanding lieutenant-colonel of the C.O.D.P. as usual to identify this kind of provisional ad hoc groupements raised throughout june 1940, the C.O.D.P. was located also in Angers
GUI 1 followed Flanders Fortified Sector, lost in Dunkirk 4th june
GUI 2 with 103e DIF
GUI 3
GUI 4 with Groupement de Perrey
GUI 5
GUI 6 forming the 2nd Autonomous Brigade with GUI 7 and 15 until 1st june
GUI 7 became 144e RIA
GUI 8 with SF Altkirch surrender 19th and 21st june
GUI 9 with 82e DIA lost around 13th june
GUI 10
May I ask any data on Groupement de Perrey like composition and what area they fight ? Thank
And regarding GUI 1 in Flanders, you mean groupe Lefebvre ? except XXI/129e RI , all units were different.
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Loïc
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Re: Training Battalions
hello
the GUI 1 was reduced to XXI/110e and XXI/129e RI after the XXI/65e RI left, it seems to appear as Groupement Lefebvre ~ "Groupement Y" then "Regiment Y" while renforced by remnants of the II/65e RI
The Groupement Perrey gathered the GUI 4 (XXI/46e & 71e RI) with a mixed squadron of the Cavalry Depot 26 from Epernay and served in the area in Champagne, captured around 15th 16th june near Troyes
according to a NCO from the squadron
https://www.gleize.net/perso/perso/la_marne_1940.pdf
the GUI 1 was reduced to XXI/110e and XXI/129e RI after the XXI/65e RI left, it seems to appear as Groupement Lefebvre ~ "Groupement Y" then "Regiment Y" while renforced by remnants of the II/65e RI
The Groupement Perrey gathered the GUI 4 (XXI/46e & 71e RI) with a mixed squadron of the Cavalry Depot 26 from Epernay and served in the area in Champagne, captured around 15th 16th june near Troyes
according to a NCO from the squadron
https://www.gleize.net/perso/perso/la_marne_1940.pdf
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Kelvin
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Re: Training Battalions
Hi, Loic, thank for your help.Loïc wrote: ↑31 May 2021 17:37hello
the GUI 1 was reduced to XXI/110e and XXI/129e RI after the XXI/65e RI left, it seems to appear as Groupement Lefebvre ~ "Groupement Y" then "Regiment Y" while renforced by remnants of the II/65e RI
The Groupement Perrey gathered the GUI 4 (XXI/46e & 71e RI) with a mixed squadron of the Cavalry Depot 26 from Epernay and served in the area in Champagne, captured around 15th 16th june near Troyes
according to a NCO from the squadron
https://www.gleize.net/perso/perso/la_marne_1940.pdf
From your data on fate of several G.U.I., I would like to see my sources right or not ?
GUI 2 : XXI/51e and 67e RI and XXI/174e RIF with 103e DIF in June 1940
GUI 8 : XXI/4e, 27e and 134e RI of 15e DIM in Altkrich SF in June 1940
GUI 9 : XXI/32e, 106e and 126e RI of 23e DI with 82e DIA in June 1940
Ｔｈａｎｋ
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Loïc
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Kelvin
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Re: Training Battalions
Hi, Loic, thank for your link, very helpful.Loïc wrote: ↑06 Jun 2021 17:50check here we are gathering datas
https://atf40.1fr1.net/t7435p25-gui-en-1940
Regards
Loïc
My correction : XXI/32, 107 and 126e RI with 82e DIA
103e DIF section correct.
But for Altrich or 44 CAF, seemed too many battalions total : XXI/4. 27. 38, 121, 134e RI ?
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Loïc
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Re: Training Battalions
Not really, these battalions from both GUI 8 (XXI/4e 27e 134e) and 13 (XXI/38e 121e) more XXI/171e RIF are rattached to SF Altkirch
Regards
Regards