Char d'Attaque des Fortifications -- Skeleton design?

[ArmchairSamurai]

Hello all.

I am digging into the history of French heavy tank development of the inter-war period and came across a curious designation that I hope one of you may shed some light on. Under the Char d'Attaque des Fortifications project, a tank was proposed with the designation "char squelette", and it weighed 110 tons. A comparison made was to the American WW1 Skeleton Tank made by Pioneer Tractor Company. In the end, the project was deemed "too advanced" for the time and was shelved in favor of other competing designs. What do you all think? Has anyone heard of this tank before? I am genuinely curious what it would have looked like. On a side note, I found this very tank mentioned in Pierre Touzin's book Les véhicules blindés français, and I am currently looking for a copy--but other than that, I am in the dark regarding this mysterious tank.

[Carl Schwamberger]

This site may have some information.

http://www.chars-francais.net/2015/inde ... nes-a-1930

[ArmchairSamurai]

This site may have some information.

http://www.chars-francais.net/2015/inde ... nes-a-1930

Thanks, Carl, I will check it out. I'll update this page if I find anything, there or elsewhere.

[Waleed Y. Majeed]

Could it be the tanks mentioned here you are referring to?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FCM_F1

Waleed

[Prosper Vandenbroucke]

I was also thinking about the FCM F1
https://www.chars-francais.net/2015/ind ... iew&id=723

[Carl Schwamberger]

The FCM F1 was my first thought as well, tho it is not a 'Skeleton Tank'.

I love that 90 47 mm cannon combination. One can imagine the shock the Germans would have experienced with these appearing in mid 1941. Heavy tanks in that era had fewer pros than cons, but unlike the Red Army in 1941 the French would have had better trained crew and leaders, & combat experience with their B series tanks.

[ArmchairSamurai]

Could it be the tanks mentioned here you are referring to?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FCM_F1

Waleed

Hello Waleed.

The tank I am referring to is not the FCM F1 per se but is a competing design of the Char d'Attaque des Fortifications competition that ultimately led to the FCM F1.

[Andy H]

Hello all.

I am digging into the history of French heavy tank development of the inter-war period and came across a curious designation that I hope one of you may shed some light on. Under the Char d'Attaque des Fortifications project, a tank was proposed with the designation "char squelette", and it weighed 110 tons. A comparison made was to the American WW1 Skeleton Tank made by Pioneer Tractor Company. In the end, the project was deemed "too advanced" for the time and was shelved in favor of other competing designs. What do you all think? Has anyone heard of this tank before? I am genuinely curious what it would have looked like. On a side note, I found this very tank mentioned in Pierre Touzin's book Les véhicules blindés français, and I am currently looking for a copy--but other than that, I am in the dark regarding this mysterious tank.

Hi

This maybe of some help, just scroll down to the ARC-C
http://www.chars-francais.net/2015/inde ... -1930-1940

Regards

Andy H

[ArmchairSamurai]

Hi

This maybe of some help, just scroll down to the ARC-C
http://www.chars-francais.net/2015/inde ... -1930-1940

Regards

Andy H

Hello Andy.

Forgive me, I am not sure what you are trying to show me. "ARC-C" does not show up in the link you gave. I even tried Ctrl-F and nothing came up. Did you mean CHAR ARL TRACTEUR C? I mean that is another design featured in Char d'Attaque des Fortifications competition, but not "char squelette" i.e. "Skeleton Tank" that I speak of. For the record, I dug through the www.chars-francais.net website and could not find anything on this mysterious tank design.

[Andy H]

Hi

Try this
http://chars-francais.net/2015/index.ph ... eresse-arl

Regards

Andy H

[Loïc]

Paul Malmassari in GBM 108 (2014) has dedicated a large article about such Interwars heavy tanks studies and projects
Au delà du char lourd : les «Maxi-Chars»
largely illustrated, few lines concerning the 110 tons Char Squelette are only illustrated by two small pictures of the US Skeleton Tank of 1918 from which it was inspired to do an improvement as it is precised
no drawing of the French study led by ARL has been found to this day

the project needs two or three years of development (...) early september 1938 both projects of tank maximum and «Squelette» are approved by the Direction de l'Infanterie with the tank "Maximum" placed in 1st emergency and the tank "Squelette" placed in 2nd emergency,
the studies become more precise and orientate towards two distincts roles
-the tank equally apt to the attack and defense of the fortified zones represented by the tank FCM F1
-the tank only destined to the attack against the fortifications with the tanks Squelette and Maximum from ARL

about his Squelette ARL envisages building a one quarter or 1/10 small-scale model but less than a year later this model will be adjourned, his study having been deemed too long

Regards
Loïc

[ArmchairSamurai]

no drawing of the French study led by ARL has been found to this day

...ARL envisages building a one quarter or 1/10 small-scale model but less than a year later this model will be adjourned, his study having been deemed too long

Hello Loïc.

Very interesting, very interesting. Given what I highlighted, I suppose this thread is dead now [haha] since what I am looking for does not exist, of at least, did exist, but is lost to time. I appreciate the post. There is much artistic license available now that I am without a basis to go off of.

[Ironmachine]

Found what follows in https://landships.activeboard.com/t9012 ... leton-tank/:

Looking at a web site produced by the French Defence Ministry I discovered an echo of the 1918 Skeleton in a French design study of 1937! As I've mentioned in the thread - Another odd Schnieder - in 1937 the French Defence Ministry requested innovative tank design studies. One of these was specifically stated to be based on the design concept of the US Skeleton tank of 1918!
The idea was to take a standard tank hull (which one was not specified but the size and weight proposed for the hull suggest the Char B, This is supported by the criticism made of the design that only a turret gun could be brought to bear, suggesting the original tank had a hull gun ) and replace the track units with a large skeleton framework to produce a much longer tank capable of crossing big spaces and with a low ground pressure. The overall tank would be 13 m (just over 43 ft) long and weigh 110 tonnes. Long distance transport would be achieved by having a railway wagon that would be powered by the tanks own engine (a large version of the Polish FT17 based draisine). The idea was rejected on the basis of a) development time 2-3 years) would be too long and b) too much tank for too little gun.

[...] it also appears that once the decision was taken , after the initial design studies, to go for the 'Maximum 'Tank with the New Skeleton as a back up project several companies were asked to provide design submissions for each tank (and they didn't necessarily stick too closely to the original spec) [...] Unfortunately it would seem that much of the paperwork was hidden in 1940 to avoid it falling into German hands (although I suspect it would have done the allies a favour if the Germans had been peruaded to spend scarce resources following up these design dead ends) and not all of it survived through the occupation (or was simply lost and is mouldering in some attic or barn).

The original specification was for a hull (capable of movement within the frame) with a length of 21 feet. The track frames were to be 43 feet long. The hull would weigh 48 tons and the track units 42 tons. The spacers between the track units would weigh 20 tons. Trench crossing capability would be 27 feet. (source French Defence Ministry).

Unfortunately, the source French Defence Ministry web site was not linked.