Minor units trapped in Alsace-Lorraine 1940

Discussions on all aspects of France during the Inter-War era and Second World War.
User avatar
Loïc
Member
Posts: 1023
Joined: 14 Jun 2003 03:38
Location: Riom Auvergne & Bourbonnais France

Re: Minor units trapped in Alsace-Lorraine 1940

Post by Loïc » 20 Jun 2021 16:39

hello

I don't think to have something to the fate of the small DAT Machine-gun companies

the Military Region are a separate territorial command with their own AAA under their authority while the Groupes d'Armées had authority on Armies, both Commands don't even match territorialy, these 3 regions receveid Armies shared between the 3 G.A. until may 1940

for the DAT Groups of the 402e
41e (121 to 123) captured except few remnants
42e (124 to 128) ? no datas 127e has been captured
43e (129 to 131) withdrawn
44e (132 133) withdrawn less 145e ? no datas
45e (134 to 136) withdrawn
46e (137 138) ? no datas
47e (139 to 141) ? no datas
48e (142 to 144) interned into Switzerland except few remnants from 144e
50e (147e withdrawn 148e captured)
51e (150 153 154 242) withdrawn
52e (149 159) withdrawn
53e (156 & 158 withdrawn 157 captured)
54e (160 to 162) captured
55e (163 164 1202) withdrawn
56e (165 to 167) withdrawn
57e (168 to 169) withdrawn
58e (171 to 174) withdrawn
59e (175 to 177) captured
60e (179 180) withdrawn
61e (178 ? 180 withdrawn) 181 to 183 previoulsy disbanded since 29th may
63e (187 188) ? no datas
64e (193 to 195) withdrawn

(...)

Kelvin
Member
Posts: 3006
Joined: 06 Apr 2007 14:49

Re: Minor units trapped in Alsace-Lorraine 1940

Post by Kelvin » 21 Jun 2021 05:52

Loïc wrote:
20 Jun 2021 16:39
hello

I don't think to have something to the fate of the small DAT Machine-gun companies

the Military Region are a separate territorial command with their own AAA under their authority while the Groupes d'Armées had authority on Armies, both Commands don't even match territorialy, these 3 regions receveid Armies shared between the 3 G.A. until may 1940

for the DAT Groups of the 402e
41e (121 to 123) captured except few remnants
42e (124 to 128) ? no datas 127e has been captured
43e (129 to 131) withdrawn
44e (132 133) withdrawn less 145e ? no datas
45e (134 to 136) withdrawn
46e (137 138) ? no datas
47e (139 to 141) ? no datas
48e (142 to 144) interned into Switzerland except few remnants from 144e
50e (147e withdrawn 148e captured)
51e (150 153 154 242) withdrawn
52e (149 159) withdrawn
53e (156 & 158 withdrawn 157 captured)
54e (160 to 162) captured
55e (163 164 1202) withdrawn
56e (165 to 167) withdrawn
57e (168 to 169) withdrawn
58e (171 to 174) withdrawn
59e (175 to 177) captured
60e (179 180) withdrawn
61e (178 ? 180 withdrawn) 181 to 183 previoulsy disbanded since 29th may
63e (187 188) ? no datas
64e (193 to 195) withdrawn

(...)
Hi, Loic, thank for your help. I think 403e Regiment also had some units trapped as I see 183,185,186e batteries of 403e Rgt covered Altkirch, 180-182 covered Besancon, 143,145,148 batteries covered Nancy, do you have data on heavy AA units of 403e Rgt too in previous post in this area ? Thank


And BTW, I see originally 187e (155mm GPF), 191e and 197e RALD ( both 220mm C16) and 53e BMM were under AG 2 command, are they withdrawn or trapped too ? Thank

User avatar
Loïc
Member
Posts: 1023
Joined: 14 Jun 2003 03:38
Location: Riom Auvergne & Bourbonnais France

Re: Minor units trapped in Alsace-Lorraine 1940

Post by Loïc » 21 Jun 2021 18:55

hello

53e BMM captured
187e RALT not in this sector having already joined the frontine on the Somme
191e RALT first 2 groups captured and 2 others groups withdrawn
197e RALT captured


DAT Groups of the 403e
40e (121 125) withdrawn
41e (126 129) captured
42e (134 137) captured less few remnants
43e (135 139) captured
44e (141e interned into Switzerland 154e captured 190e withdrawn)
45e (143 145 148) captured
46e (144 146 147) captured less a part of 147e
47e (150 151) withdrawn
48e (155 156 157) captured
49e (158 159 160) captured
50e (152 153) withdrawn
51e (136 142) withdrawn
52e (123 140 149) interned into Switzerland less few remnants from 123e
53e (127 189 withdrawn 130e interned into Switzerland)
54e (131 138 192) withdrawn
56e (172 173 174) captured
57e (175 176 177) withdrawn
58e (161 162 163) withdrawn
59e (164 166) withdrawn renforced the Army of the Alps
60e (165 167 168 169) withdrawn
61e (178 179) withdrawn
62e (170 171) withdrawn
63e (180 181 182) withdrawn
64e (183 185 captured 186 interned into Switzerland)

Kelvin
Member
Posts: 3006
Joined: 06 Apr 2007 14:49

Re: Minor units trapped in Alsace-Lorraine 1940

Post by Kelvin » 22 Jun 2021 13:42

Loïc wrote:
21 Jun 2021 18:55
hello

53e BMM captured
187e RALT not in this sector having already joined the frontine on the Somme
191e RALT first 2 groups captured and 2 others groups withdrawn
197e RALT captured


DAT Groups of the 403e
40e (121 125) withdrawn
41e (126 129) captured
42e (134 137) captured less few remnants
43e (135 139) captured
44e (141e interned into Switzerland 154e captured 190e withdrawn)
45e (143 145 148) captured
46e (144 146 147) captured less a part of 147e
47e (150 151) withdrawn
48e (155 156 157) captured
49e (158 159 160) captured
50e (152 153) withdrawn
51e (136 142) withdrawn
52e (123 140 149) interned into Switzerland less few remnants from 123e
53e (127 189 withdrawn 130e interned into Switzerland)
54e (131 138 192) withdrawn
56e (172 173 174) captured
57e (175 176 177) withdrawn
58e (161 162 163) withdrawn
59e (164 166) withdrawn renforced the Army of the Alps
60e (165 167 168 169) withdrawn
61e (178 179) withdrawn
62e (170 171) withdrawn
63e (180 181 182) withdrawn
64e (183 185 captured 186 interned into Switzerland)

Hi, Loic, thank so much for your help, very detailed and helpful. :D

I would like ask if 312e and 315e RAP (75mm mle 1897) and 173e RALD (220mm L17) under 5th Army were left with 187e RALD ? They seemed group together under 5th Army ? Thank

User avatar
Loïc
Member
Posts: 1023
Joined: 14 Jun 2003 03:38
Location: Riom Auvergne & Bourbonnais France

Re: Minor units trapped in Alsace-Lorraine 1940

Post by Loïc » 23 Jun 2021 01:26

hello

be carefull all these regiments are not divisionnal RALD, 187e is a RALT while 173e is a RALPT from the Artillery General Reserve

312e 315 RAP 173e RALPT left also this sector for the Picardy

Kelvin
Member
Posts: 3006
Joined: 06 Apr 2007 14:49

Re: Minor units trapped in Alsace-Lorraine 1940

Post by Kelvin » 23 Jun 2021 10:50

Loïc wrote:
23 Jun 2021 01:26
hello

be carefull all these regiments are not divisionnal RALD, 187e is a RALT while 173e is a RALPT from the Artillery General Reserve

312e 315 RAP 173e RALPT left also this sector for the Picardy
Hello, Loic, thank so much for your help. I always confused with D and T, thank for your correction. :D

Kelvin
Member
Posts: 3006
Joined: 06 Apr 2007 14:49

Re: Minor units trapped in Alsace-Lorraine 1940

Post by Kelvin » 03 Jul 2021 14:35

Hi, Loic, I found that several RRP were located in several SF like :
61e RPR in Thionville, 62e and 64e in Chalons, 65e in Verdun, 68e and 69e at Metz, 71e at Colmar, 72e at Belfort, 75e at Mulhouse,76 at SF Altirich, 77e at Besancon, 78e at Vesoul and 79e at SD Montbeliard. did they survived or being trapped too in Alsace Lorraine ? Thank

And also may I ask did 44e, 45e and 46e GRRF and 51er, 55e, 57e and58e BMM are also still there in June 1940 ? Thank

User avatar
Loïc
Member
Posts: 1023
Joined: 14 Jun 2003 03:38
Location: Riom Auvergne & Bourbonnais France

Re: Minor units trapped in Alsace-Lorraine 1940

Post by Loïc » 06 Jul 2021 15:23

hello

not a definitive reply for the Regional Regiments because sometimes they served quite scattered so the same regiment can have few elements withdrawn while others and/or the bulk or the unit mainly captured 61e 64e 71e 72e 77e 78e...add to that the matter they can hardly fight for some of their unarmed companies such as labour or Passive Defence (salvage firemen) companies

the 79e RR didn't longer exist already disbanded since november 1939
the 68e 75e 76e RR joined the Rhône Valley and Groupements Cartier or de Mesmay

51e BMM withdrawn with 28e DI in the Massif central
55e 57e 58e BMM captured


for all concerning the Recce Groups there is the GRCA website on line
http://grca.free.fr/historique_grdi/44_grdi.htm
http://grca.free.fr/historique_grdi/45_grdi.htm
http://grca.free.fr/historique_grdi/46_grdi.htm

...captured

Kelvin
Member
Posts: 3006
Joined: 06 Apr 2007 14:49

Re: Minor units trapped in Alsace-Lorraine 1940

Post by Kelvin » 07 Jul 2021 14:09

Loïc wrote:
06 Jul 2021 15:23
hello

not a definitive reply for the Regional Regiments because sometimes they served quite scattered so the same regiment can have few elements withdrawn while others and/or the bulk or the unit mainly captured 61e 64e 71e 72e 77e 78e...add to that the matter they can hardly fight for some of their unarmed companies such as labour or Passive Defence (salvage firemen) companies

the 79e RR didn't longer exist already disbanded since november 1939
the 68e 75e 76e RR joined the Rhône Valley and Groupements Cartier or de Mesmay

51e BMM withdrawn with 28e DI in the Massif central
55e 57e 58e BMM captured


for all concerning the Recce Groups there is the GRCA website on line
http://grca.free.fr/historique_grdi/44_grdi.htm
http://grca.free.fr/historique_grdi/45_grdi.htm
http://grca.free.fr/historique_grdi/46_grdi.htm

...captured
Hello, Loic, thank so much for your help. Very detailed and helpful.
BTW, I see 193e RALT and 51e BCC abandoned their 280mm Schneider Self-propelled howitzer and FCM-2C heavy Tanks respectively that mean its crews escaped successfully ? Thank

User avatar
Loïc
Member
Posts: 1023
Joined: 14 Jun 2003 03:38
Location: Riom Auvergne & Bourbonnais France

Re: Minor units trapped in Alsace-Lorraine 1940

Post by Loïc » 07 Jul 2021 22:45

Indeed for both
the 51e BCC was a strong battalion by the size of the tanks but a small in strenght 200 to 300 men

Kelvin
Member
Posts: 3006
Joined: 06 Apr 2007 14:49

Re: Minor units trapped in Alsace-Lorraine 1940

Post by Kelvin » 08 Jul 2021 04:10

Loïc wrote:
07 Jul 2021 22:45
Indeed for both
the 51e BCC was a strong battalion by the size of the tanks but a small in strength 200 to 300 men
Hi, Loic, thank a lot.

May I ask if French horsed drawn machine gun battalion were held in reserve, not for front ? because I see only BMM in French OOB, For BM, I only see 1er BM attached to 101e DIF in 1939 but withdrawn. And only 6e, 9e and 10e BM shows in OOB of the Army of the Alps. Apart from those units, did 1er, 2e to 5e, 7e to 8e and 11e BM had engaged in combat ? in Army Group 2 or Army Group 3 ? Thank

User avatar
Loïc
Member
Posts: 1023
Joined: 14 Jun 2003 03:38
Location: Riom Auvergne & Bourbonnais France

Re: Minor units trapped in Alsace-Lorraine 1940

Post by Loïc » 08 Jul 2021 21:18

hello

of course all participated in combats

the 1er BM was not whithdrawn but lost in the Flanders in Lille
2e BM IXe then Xe Corps withdrawn
3e BM in first line in the key-sector of the Ardennes with the 102e DIF where it was destroyed
4e BM SF Montmédy captured
5e BM SF Sarre captured
7e & 8e BM 105e DIF captured
11e BM 71e then 55e DI disbanded merged in the newly-raised 59e RI

Kelvin
Member
Posts: 3006
Joined: 06 Apr 2007 14:49

Re: Minor units trapped in Alsace-Lorraine 1940

Post by Kelvin » 09 Jul 2021 13:44

Loïc wrote:
08 Jul 2021 21:18
hello

of course all participated in combats

the 1er BM was not whithdrawn but lost in the Flanders in Lille
2e BM IXe then Xe Corps withdrawn
3e BM in first line in the key-sector of the Ardennes with the 102e DIF where it was destroyed
4e BM SF Montmédy captured
5e BM SF Sarre captured
7e & 8e BM 105e DIF captured
11e BM 71e then 55e DI disbanded merged in the newly-raised 59e RI
Hi, Loic, thank again very much for your detailed answer. Very much appreciated. :D

Kelvin
Member
Posts: 3006
Joined: 06 Apr 2007 14:49

Re: Minor units trapped in Alsace-Lorraine 1940

Post by Kelvin » 11 Jul 2021 10:38

Hello, Loic, may I ask when German overran Epiral, 207e RRP still survived ? And 205e RRP was in 103e DIF sector, also captured with this division in June 1940, and I see Nancy area had 202e and 203e RRP, are they still there ?

And 20e BARP was dissolved already when Lauter RF was no more ? Thank

User avatar
Loïc
Member
Posts: 1023
Joined: 14 Jun 2003 03:38
Location: Riom Auvergne & Bourbonnais France

Re: Minor units trapped in Alsace-Lorraine 1940

Post by Loïc » 11 Jul 2021 18:08

hello

all the regional units from 20e Region were captured, 20e and 201e Bataillons Autonomes 202e to 208e Régiment de Protection

Return to “France 1919-1945”