French regimental flags, captured by the Germans in the Second World War.

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Giselle_Sevast
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French regimental flags, captured by the Germans in the Second World War.

Post by Giselle_Sevast » 14 Jul 2017 17:18

Good day!

I'm interested in the topic of the regimental banners of European countries of the 20th century.


Is it known how many French army regimental banners were captured by the Germans in World War II? And, Where they were captured? Which regiments have lost their flags?

By the spring of 1942 at least five of them was exhibited in the Berlin War Museum - Zeughaus, together with another captured flags - Polish, Soviet, Belgian, Norwegian and others.
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One captured flag belonged to the 155th Infantry Regiment, the other belonged to the 25th Regiment of Algerian Tirailleur.
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Among them was at least one dragoon standard.
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Is there any information about the rest?

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Loïc
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Re:French regimental flags/standarts captured by the Germans

Post by Loïc » 15 Jul 2017 05:09

Very interesting picture
in 1940 many encircled units chose to burn or hide their flags before they were captured

the German propaganda has used also a captured flag of the 145e RI of Maubeuge...but...such regiment didn't exist!
...it was the first infantry regiment of the French Army to disappear in september 1914 26 years before and was not reactived, raised again in the French Army since september 1914, the germans captured the flag of this disbanded regiment in the Maubeuge sector in may 1940

the 25e RTA probably lost in Flanders in may 1940
the 155e RIF of the Fortified Sector of Montmédy, in Lorraine in june 1940

due to their size the two others unidentified seem also "flags" (and not smaller regimental cavalry/artillery "standarts" like the unidentified Dragoons)

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Loïc L.

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Re: French regimental flags, captured by the Germans in the Second World War.

Post by Giselle_Sevast » 15 Jul 2017 13:07

Thanks!

I saw propagandistic photo where is the German soldier with the flag of the non-existent 145th regiment. Probably, the Germans dragged it out of the regimental museum of the successor-unit.

I met information that the Germans also captured somewhere the flags of the 62nd Infantry Regiment, 105th Infantry Regiment and 127th Infantry Regiment (but I do not know if these banners came directly to the Berlin Museum or not) and empty pole from the another burning flag. An empty pole from the flag was exhibited in Zeughaus in 1940.
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Is there any French historiography on the loss of banners in the Second World War? For example, for losses in the First World War, there is exact information.

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Giselle_Sevast.

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Re: French regimental flags, captured by the Germans in the Second World War.

Post by Loïc » 15 Jul 2017 16:02

a such book doesn't exist for me, otherwise I would have it, we find here and there some datas about the fate of the flag
before your post I only knew the cases of the 127e and 145e, and fanions (battalion, company, squadron's pennant)

the 105e RI, my God you crucify me
in this encircled sector behind the Maginot Line in the Vosges c.20/22th june 1940 the units have massively burned or burried their flags and the history of the 26th Infantry Division (26e DI with 86e 98e 105e RI) explained only for the 20th june : flags burned or burried after last resistances e.g. the 86e RI has burned its the 19th june

the 145e RI was certainly taken in a fort of the 87e RIF of Maubeuge as it was kept in a museum then in a company of this garrison (or a copy of it made by veterans because sources say that the real flag was destroyed in Maubeuge in september 1914...)

for the 127e RI, I know the picture, we had a discussion about it in our french-speaking forum, it is (the same mentionned?) empty flagpole shown at La Neuville-en-Tourne-à-Fuy in the Ardennes presented to Guderian the 11th june 1940, almost nothing remains of the burned flag itself
http://atf40.forumculture.net/t5592-que ... -allemands
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the 62e and 105e RI could be the missing regiments? Not sure because I see that one flag seems to have only 3 battles while both regiments have 8 battles
drapeaux.PNG
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http://www.les-tirailleurs.fr/unites/25-rta
Regards
Loïc
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Re: French regimental flags, captured by the Germans in the Second World War.

Post by Giselle_Sevast » 15 Jul 2017 19:11

I understood. It is a pity that there is no historiography on this topic.

Just do not have the fact that all unit battle flags that were captured by the Germans on all fronts of the Second World War came to Berlin in Zeughaus.

For example, the Poles know exactly which regimental flags were captured (but not all of them were sent to Berlin!).

Something could not be exhibited simultaneously.

Probably not all flags were burned in a threatening situation, but in fact they were captured by the Germans.

I know one more case of the capture of the French regimental flag by the Germans. In January 1943, Germans captured flag of the 3rd Regiment of the Foreign Legion. But I doubt that they had time to send it from Africa to Germany.
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Re: French regimental flags, captured by the Germans in the Second World War.

Post by Loïc » 15 Jul 2017 21:56

Indeed I knew also the case of the 3e REI, it is like the 145e RI there is a curious story about it, the Foreign Legion doesn't recognize the loss
it seems that ignoring its presence it was forgotten in some place the 18th or 19th january 1943 and recovered in similar conditions forgotten by the germans in a Tunisian car workshop (?!)


for the flag of the 62e RI it was captured the 18th may 1940 near the Belgian border

just discovered the case of the 6e RTA lost around Troyes the 15th june 1940

Affaire à suivre...
Regards
Loïc

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Re: French regimental flags, captured by the Germans in the Second World War.

Post by Giselle_Sevast » 16 Jul 2017 12:19

Thanks!

I understand that regimental flag of 6th Regiment of Algerian Tirailleur had four inscriptions of honor on reverse side. In that case, it was not exhibited in the Berlin Zeughaus in the spring of 1942.

Top photo was made by Finnish military delegation, it is not very quality.

There is another image, also not quality. If numbers of Polish regiments can be seen (54 IR and 42 IR respectively), but numbers of French regiments can not be seen unfortunately.
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Which regiments have lost their fagnons? Germans captured them whole heap.

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Giselle_Sevast.

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Re: French regimental flags, captured by the Germans in the Second World War.

Post by Loïc » 18 Jul 2017 23:33

the 5th Moroccan Tirailleurs Regiment (5e RTM) has lost several pennants
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on the left of the Finnish picture they seem almost all North Tirailleurs units with crescent (Algerian Tunisian) or five-branches Cherifian star (Moroccan) while on the right seem metropolitan units

due to beneficial contacts while Colonel Thierry Moné worked his thesis about the 3rd Spahis Brigade the pennant of the 2nd squadron of 2nd Moroccan Spahis Regiment taken in 1940 was given back in 2014 by a descendant of the german family who kept it, the lieutenant-colonel Eisenbach of the Luftwaffe to the French Historical Service
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https://tel.archives-ouvertes.fr/tel-01468845/document
Capture.PNG

an other regimental flag discovered but not taken by the germans in 1940 : the 5th Colonial Artillery Regiment (5e RAC) taken by the Japanese in Saïgon Indochina the 9th march 1945 to add to the list

may-june 1940
6e RTA
25e RTA
62e RI
105e RI (not found source)
155e RIF
the particular case of the disbanded 145e RI

january 1943
mysterious case of 3e REI forgotten two times by each side

march 1945
5e RAC (by Japanese)
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Re: French regimental flags, captured by the Germans in the Second World War.

Post by Giselle_Sevast » 19 Jul 2017 08:06

I see. Thanks.

Is it known that the Soviet Union (or GDR) transferred anything from what was exhibited at the Berlin War Museum to France after the war? In 1945 Allied Kommandatura abolished Zeughaus as a bulwark of fascism and German militarism. The collections were sent to USSR as a trophy.

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Re: French regimental flags, captured by the Germans in the Second World War.

Post by Giselle_Sevast » 01 Aug 2017 17:55

Also somewhere was captured regimental flag of 44th Colonial Infantry Regiment. Its half of the cloth survived in German Historical Museum to this day.

http://www.dhm.de/datenbank/dhm.php?sei ... 0=MI010811

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Re: French regimental flags, captured by the Germans in the Second World War.

Post by Loïc » 02 Aug 2017 20:30

good find, the 44e RIC/RICMS was almost destroyed or captured ~7th june 1940 during the battle on the Somme, even its official diary was lost

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Re: French regimental flags, captured by the Germans in the Second World War.

Post by Giselle_Sevast » 02 Jul 2020 18:53

Cavalry standard from Berlin exhibition belonged to 21t Dragoon Regiment.

Image

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Re: French regimental standard 21e Dragons

Post by Loïc » 02 Jul 2020 19:10

So we are with a second similar case like the disbanded 145e RI

because the 21e Dragons also didn't exist in the French Army of WWII

it was disbanded in 1928 and not restablished before 1956 for the Algerian War

Regards
Loïc

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