What version of the 75 mm Mle 1897?

[Manuferey]

The gun on the foreground of this picture (from ebay.de) is a 75 mm Mle 1897/33, a modernized version of the Mle 1897, with split trail and large steel wheels. Next to it there is another 75 mm but with a different set of wheels. There is another one of this version on the 2nd row, 1st gun from the right. The wheels look of the same height as the wheels of the Mle 1897 but are probably made of steel like for the Mle 97/33.

What version of the 75 mm is it?

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Emmanuel

[Manuferey]

I've found a better picture of this type of gun here. The shield is also not rectangular unlike on the original 75 mm Mle 1897.

(Source: http://www.odkrywca-online.com/forum_pi ... /dziao.jpg)



Emmanuel

[jopaerya]

Hello Emmanuel

I don't have "the" anwser but a other photo of the gun from Ebay.de

Regards Jos

[Manuferey]

Thanks Jos. We'll keep searching for the answer!

Emmanuel

[SASH155]

I think I read somewhere (perhaps in Guerre Blindés et Matériel) that the French fitted some of their mle. 1897s with these large disk wheels fitted with knobs for manhandling the piece starting in late 1939-through June 1940 in order to make it easier to use them in the anti-tank role. This allowed guns not equipped with a turn table platform (most 75's fell into this category) to be traversed through 360 degrees in order to engage fleeting targets. The Canon de Campagne de 75 mle. 1897 (Puteaux) proved to be a formidable anti-tank weapon against the relatively lightly armored German tanks of the period (30mm maximum for the glacis plates of the PzKpfW III Ausf. F and PzKpfW IV Ausf. C).

[Manuferey]

Thanks Sash155.

Modification for the AT role makes sense: I've read that the 75 mm Mle 1897 gun modified in 1938 with pneumatic tires became quite heavy (1500 kg) and thus difficult to maneuver while in position.

The idea of large disk wheels fitted with knobs was implemented on the 105 mm Court Mle 1935 B (Bourges) and the 75 mm Mle 97/33 but for a different reason: both guns had split trails and the steel wheels provided added protection for the servants. See below (pictures from "sudwall.superforum.fr"):

105 mm C Mle 35:


75 mm Mle 97/33:


Emmanuel

[SASH155]

I was aware that the wheels on the mle. 1897/33 and 105mm C35B served the dual role of providing not only mobility but also protection, however, the "normal" '75s modified with those unusual disk wheels lacked the pivoting axle tree of those two guns, so the wheels were fixed. I believe that mle. 1897s with the later model disk or cast spoked wheels with pneumatic tires were relatively more common than this variant with these strange steel shod wheels.

[Ben Mac]

Dear All,

I am new to this site, so please be gentle.
I picked up a shell case for my collection yesterday, and usually I only buy WW1 cases that are stamped with a date. I have been trying to establish what the case is.
I think that it may be a French 75mm Mle but I cannot find any sources that show me any markings of shell cases for this type to confirm this.
Sorry but my camera is out of action so I will describe as best I can and hope that maybe one of you may be able to help.
It stands 75cm high, opening at top is 75mm, base is 85mm, the markings are in a circular patern and reading clockwise:
ARM.75.wz.97, then a circle with a capital P inside, then 4P28N, then a circle with what looks to be a capital S and T overlaid.
Inside the case I can see a protruding finger of what looks to be a brass structure the length of a "Bic pen" case that would look to be directly positioned to be coming from the location of where the shell has been struck to fire.
Most sites I use are good when it comes to German or British shell cases, but it seems that anything else has been overlooked. If anyone knows of any sites that I could use for identification purposes I would also be very grateful.
Thank you in advance.

[jopaerya]

Hello Ben Mac

I am not a specialist on shellcase's but I think it's from a Polish 75 mm Armata Polowa wz.1897

Regards Jos

[SASH155]

I would interpret the markings as follows, but this may not be completely corrrect: ARM= Armata, Polish for field gun; wz.= Wzor or "model"; P= Poland???; 4P28N= something about the date of manufacture? ie. April 1928; S and T= probably denotes the arsenal at Starachowice.

[Ben Mac]

Thank you both, that has certainly given me a better idea of what it is sitting in my study.
SASH155, are you the "Oracle"?
Strange to find a Polish shell case in the UK. Most of the souvenirs that were brought back by the serving soldiers were either trench art, so cut down munitions that they found and then made into something small enough to hide in their kit, or the rare whole case that post war visitors brought back from purchases.
This one must certainly have a story behind it. Unless the shell was used by the Germans post their invasion and found its way into a battle further South.
Thank you again, much appreciated.

[SASH155]

If what I surmised is correct, and the shell casing was found by a British or other allied soldier during the Second World War, it probably came from a captured round expended by the Germans in France or even Italy. It is probable, even likely, that the Germans transferred large stocks of captured ammunition from Poland to France or elsewhere, along with some captured pieces from Poland's artillery park, which included the 75mm "Canon de 75 de campagne mle. 1897". It is also possible that the round was fired from a 7.5cm PaK 97/38, a German conversion of the French gun into an anti-tank gun by mounting it on the carriage of the 5cm PaK-38 AT gun and fitting a pepper pot muzzle brake. Otherwise it came surplus from Poland directly and was expended by the Poles during the September-October 1939 campaign there.

[Sturm78]

Hi all,

Another image of an 75mm Mle 1897/33 french gun:

Image from Ebay
Sturm78

[Sturm78]

Hi all,

I found another image of this rare versión of the 75mm Mle 1897 french gun:

Image from EBay
Sturm78

[Manuferey]

Sturm78,

Your last picture shows the 75 mm Mle 1897 "type Maroc" (= Morroco). The wheels are different from the Mle 97-33. The Type Maroc did not have a split trail: it was basically a Mle 1897 with steel wheels.

Emmanuel