Pilsudski's preventive war against Hitler in 1934 : fake or not ?

[DavidFrankenberg]

Louis Barthou.png

So far, it is the only photo showing, i think, the arrival of Barthou.
As you can see, no french flags, no honour guards, no trumpets, no flowers... and no Beck !

[gebhk]

Hi David

So far, it is the only photo showing, i think, the arrival of Barthou.

Nope, there is a bunch of them on 'Szukaj w Archiwach' that WM linked.

As you can see, no french flags, no honour guards, no trumpets, no flowers... and no Beck !

And if you compare this with a suitably selected analogous platform photo of the arrival of Ribbentrop and you replace 'no honour guard' with 'no enthusiastic crowd of well-wishers', you can recycle the above sentence pretty much. The only significant difference is the absence of Beck - I have checked that with contemporaneous press and indeed Barthou was met at the station by Romer in his official capacity with the Chief of Staff of the Foreign Ministry, Roman Debicki, representing Beck. Beck met Barthou later that day at the official dinner given by him in Barthou's honour. No idea why Beck did not meet Barthou at the station, as he did Laval and Ribbentrop. Without that knowledge it is impossible to make assumptions about motivation. He certainly made up for it in the following days by taking Barthou personally to meet Pilsudski and Moscicki, accompanying him on a rail trip to Krakow and showing him personally round the main sights of Krakow and its greatest worthies. Neither Laval nor Ribbentrop got that treatment.

Re your obsession with flowers - of course you don't necessarily see them on photos. Unless the moment when they are given is snapped, they will be immediately handed to a staffer. A woman may retain a smaller posy if appropriate - you can see that on the picture of Laval's daughter departing from Warsaw. She is holding a smaller posy while the large bouquet of roses she has just handed to the French ambassador's wife on her left. In Poland the giving of flowers is almost as frequent as the shaking of hands and is not restricted to men giving flowers to women. I don't think it was any different before the war, so I think it unlikely that Barthou was not given any.

I'm afraid I can't help observing that your apparently desperate attempts to spin some sort of cospiracy theory out of a single photograph and the counting of flags and flowers seem a trifle odd.

Hi WM

Its platforms lacked canopies and this is consistent with the photos of Barthou's arrival.

Flicking through the 'Szukam w Archiwum' Barthou pictures, I came across NAC 3/1/0/17/4578/1 which shows Barthou departing (on what looks like a particularly miserable wet day!). This of course faces the other way from the arrival photos and therefore shows what very much looks like part of the external canopy of the trackside of the Temporary Central Station hall and one of the railheads. In short the photogrphs confirm that Barthou arrived and left to and from the Temporary Central Station.

[wm]

Well, I don't know. It seems there was nothing there over the platforms.

nieznane-zdjecia-starej-warszawy2.jpg

3_1_0_8_3737_210505_kp.jpg

chmielna_dworzec_03.jpg

[gebhk]

No, but as you can see clearly on all these photographs, there were canopies on the buildings bordering the platform area.

[DavidFrankenberg]

'no honour guard' with 'no enthusiastic crowd of well-wishers',
(...)
No idea why Beck did not meet Barthou at the station, as he did Laval and Ribbentrop.
(...)
Re your obsession with flowers

It's all about the protocol.

In 1939 Beck welcomed Ribbentrop in person, gave flowers, honour guard, nazi flags everywhere, etc.
In 1934 Beck did not welcome Barthou, did not give flowers, no honour guard, no french flags everywhere etc.
Barthou was clearly bad treated.
Who decided all this ? Beck of course.
Léon Noël explains why very well.

But let me quote him :

Lors de son arrivée, à Varsovie, l’année précédente, pour éviter qu’il ne fût acclamé par la foule qui l’attendait devant la gare principale, on avait fait descendre du train Louis Barthou dans une petite gare excentrique. Quand ce fut le tour de Pierre Laval, on invoqua des raisons de sécurité pour le recevoir dans la même station avec le minimum de pompe et d’assistance. Le nonce apostolique, Mgr Marmaggi, qui était venu accueillir Barthou à la gare, reçut, la veille de l’arrivée de Laval, le chef du protocole chargé de l’avertir que la réception ne revêtirait aucune solennité. Diplomatiquement, il lui répondit qu’une grippe récente ne lui aurait pas permis, à son grand regret, de se rendre à la gare.9
Lors du déjeuner, qui avait été offert à Laval au ministère des Affaires étrangères, aucun toast n’avait été prononcé

9 = On en jugera d’après ces extraits du toast prononcé par Beck, à l’adresse de Barthou. en avril 1934 : « Nous saluons en vous l’homme d’Etat dont la collaboration à l’acte diplomatique qui, en 1921, a forgé les éléments de notre alliance, a été si considérable et si personnelle [...]. Profondément convaincu de la durée inaltérable de notre alliance, de sa valeur et de ses effets bienfaisants non seulement pour nos deux pays, mais pour l’ordre international, etc. ». En mai 1935, Laval donna à la presse une déclaration dans laquelle il affirmait qu’« en France, comme en Pologne, chacun sait que l’alliance conclue en 1921 est en réalité inscrite dans la nature et dans l’histoire ». Beck laissa sans contrepartie cette déclaration de l’hôte de son pays. Elle aurait dû. pourtant, par la mention qu’elle contenait du pacte de 1921, le satisfaire particulièrement : le Quai d’Orsay préférait, d’ordinaire, passer sous silence cet accord, pour ne faire mention que de celui de 1925, consécutif au pacte de Locarno. qui avait tant blessé et qui inquiétait toujours la Pologne.

Translation :

When he arrived in Warsaw the year before, to avoid being cheered on by the crowd waiting for him in front of the main station, Louis Barthou had been taken off the train at a small, eccentric station. When it was Pierre Laval's turn, security reasons were invoked to receive him at the same station with the minimum of pomp and assistance. The apostolic nuncio, Mgr Marmaggi, who had come to welcome Barthou at the station, received, the day before Laval's arrival, the head of protocol responsible for warning him that the reception would not be solemn. Diplomatically, he replied that a recent flu would not have allowed him, to his great regret, to go to the station.9
During the lunch, which had been offered to Laval at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, no toast had been pronounced

9 = We can judge from these excerpts from the toast delivered by Beck to Barthou. in April 1934: “We salute in you the statesman whose collaboration in the diplomatic act which, in 1921, forged the elements of our alliance, was so considerable and so personal [...]. Deeply convinced of the unalterable duration of our alliance, of its value and its beneficial effects not only for our two countries, but for the international order, etc. ". In May 1935, Laval gave a statement to the press in which he affirmed that "in France, as in Poland, everyone knows that the alliance concluded in 1921 is in reality inscribed in nature and in history". Beck left this statement from his country's host unrequited. She should have. however, by the mention it contained of the pact of 1921, to satisfy him particularly: the Quai d'Orsay usually preferred to pass over this agreement in silence, to mention only that of 1925, following the pact of Locarno . which had hurt so much and which still worried Poland.

The photos did not contradict Noël indeed.

Why so much hostility towerds french envoys ?
Of course, Beck was pro-german.
Léon Noël explains the long history of hostility by Beck. It goes back to 1921, when Beck was nominated in the polish embassy in Paris.

En 1921, Pilsudski fit connaître son intention de nommer le major Beck attaché militaire adjoint à Paris. Le général Niessel, chef de la mission militaire française en Pologne, s’en alarma. Il signala au ministre de France à Varsovie, M. de Panafieu, et au ministre de la Guerre que Beck avait toujours cherché à saboter la collaboration entre le service de renseignements français et le service de renseignements polonais, qu’il le suspectait de plus encore et qu’il faudrait, en tout cas, s’il était nommé à Paris, se garder de lui communiquer aucun document officiel.
(...)
Peu après son installation à Paris, le major Beck en fut brusquement chassé à la demande du maréchal Foch. Plusieurs versions m’ont été données des motifs de cette décision. Selon les uns, tenant compte, à sa façon, de la recommandation de Barthou, un de nos officiers se serait absenté du bureau où il recevait Beck, en laissant intentionnellement, sur son bureau, un document confidentiel. A son retour, ce document avait disparu. On a dit aussi qu’on avait envoyé au major Beck un agent provocateur qui, moyennant finances, aurait obtenu de lui des renseignements intéressants l’armée française

On a raconté également qu’après avoir travaillé un matin jusqu’à l’heure du déjeuner, au ministère de la Guerre, avec l’officier qui était son correspondant, Beck et celui-ci étaient partis ensemble. Au bas de l’escalier, le major Beck aurait déclaré avoir oublié un papier dans le bureau de son camarade français. Ce dernier, lui faisant confiance, avait insisté pour qu’il remonte seul le chercher. En rentrant au ministère, au début de l’après-midi, il aurait constaté qu’un document avait disparu qui jamais plus n’aurait été retrouvé.

11 Questionné par moi, à ce sujet, le 26 mai 1948, Weygand me répondit « n’avoir gardé aucun souvenir (...)
55 J’incline à croire qu’un piège avait été tendu à Beck par nos officiers et qu’il s’y laissa prendre, ce qui expliquerait que ceux qui ont eu connaissance directe de l’incident – Weygand en tête11 – se soient dérobés chaque fois que j’ai tenté d’obtenir d’eux des précisions.

Toujours est-il que le major Beck se vit contraint de quitter la France dans un délai de quelques heures.

Point n’est besoin de connaître beaucoup la psychologie humaine pour comprendre ce qui en résulta. Beck avait su les difficultés soulevées par sa désignation. Il n’ignorait pas qu’il ne l’avait emporté que grâce à la puissante protection de Pilsudski. La méfiance qui lui avait été témoignée accrut son hostilité contre la France et le fait que le gouvernement français avait fini par se résigner à céder ajouta à sa rancune une nuance de mépris.

12 Il faut voir comment, dans la notice biographique qu’il a rédigée pour le Dernier rapport Il resta à jamais ulcéré d’avoir été chassé de France, dans des conditions ignominieuses12. Il en voulut, dès lors, à tous les officiers français et sa hargne se tourna, dès qu’il en eut le moyen, contre les diplomates polonais qui étaient au courant de l’incident, pour avoir été en poste à Paris lorsqu’il avait été expulsé de France : il les exclut l’un après l’autre de la Carrière.

58Cette triste affaire eut une autre conséquence : Mme Beck en conçut envers la France une animosité plus forte encore que celle de son mari. Si les renseignements qui m’ont été donnés sont exacts, comme j’ai tout lieu de le penser, elle n’était pas encore mariée à Joseph Beck, mais elle l’avait accompagné à Paris, en se faisant passer pour sa femme. Démasquée, et peut-être par la Légation de Pologne elle-même, elle serait repartie pour la Pologne avec, au cœur, une de ces rancunes féminines qui ne sauraient s’apaiser.

Translation :

In 1921, Pilsudski announced his intention to appoint Major Beck Deputy Military Attaché in Paris. General Niessel, head of the French military mission in Poland, was alarmed. He pointed out to the Minister of France in Warsaw, M. de Panafieu, and to the Minister of War that Beck had always sought to sabotage the collaboration between the French intelligence service and the Polish intelligence service, that he suspected him even more and that it would be necessary, in any case, if he were appointed to Paris, to take care not to communicate to him any official document.

Shortly after his installation in Paris, Major Beck was abruptly expelled at the request of Marshal Foch. Several versions have been given to me of the reasons for this decision. According to some, taking account, in his own way, of Barthou's recommendation, one of our officers was absent from the office where he received Beck, intentionally leaving a confidential document on his desk. When he returned, this document had disappeared. It was also said that Major Beck had been sent an agent provocateur who, for a fee, would have obtained from him information of interest to the French army.

It was also said that after having worked one morning until lunchtime, at the Ministry of War, with the officer who was his correspondent, Beck and the latter had left together. At the bottom of the stairs, Major Beck is said to have forgotten a piece of paper in his French comrade's office. The latter, trusting him, had insisted that he go back alone to look for him. On returning to the ministry, at the beginning of the afternoon, he would have noticed that a document had disappeared which would never have been found again.

11 Questioned by me on this subject, on May 26, 1948, Weygand replied “having kept no memory (...)
55 I am inclined to believe that a trap had been set for Beck by our officers and that he allowed himself to be caught in it, which would explain why those who had direct knowledge of the incident – ​​Weygand in the lead11 – shied away every time I tried to get clarification from them.

Still, Major Beck was forced to leave France within a few hours.

You don't need to know much about human psychology to understand what resulted. Beck had known the difficulties raised by his appointment. He was well aware that he had won only thanks to the powerful protection of Pilsudski. The mistrust shown to him increased his hostility towards France, and the fact that the French government had finally resigned itself to giving in added a shade of contempt to his resentment.

12 We must see how, in the biographical note he wrote for the Last Report, he remained forever ulcerated at having been driven out of France, in ignominious conditions12. From then on, he resented all the French officers and his aggressiveness turned, as soon as he had the means, against the Polish diplomats who were aware of the incident, for having been stationed in Paris when he had been expelled from France: he expelled them one after the other from the Carrière.

58This sad affair had another consequence: Madame Beck felt an even stronger animosity towards France than that of her husband. If the information given to me is correct, as I have every reason to believe, she was not yet married to Joseph Beck, but she had accompanied him to Paris, pretending to be his wife. Unmasked, and perhaps by the Polish Legation itself, she would have gone back to Poland with, in her heart, one of those feminine grudges that cannot be appeased.

[henryk]

Louis Barthou arrived at the Warsaw Main Station

The Warsaw Central Station actually [https://www.warszawa1939.pl/obiekt/glowny-tymczasowy] existed(it was built in 1921):

There is no mention of Warsaw Central Station in the source given.
google translation:

TEMPORARY BUILDING OF THE MAIN STATION
Chmielna
CONSTRUCTION:
1920-21.
It was erected on the site of the former Customs Chamber and Mitkiewicz's villa in connection with the planned construction of the cross-city line and the partial demolition of the Vienna Railway Station and the construction of the new Main Railway Station.

DESTROYED:
the building burnt down in September 1939.
During the Second World War, St. on the site of the burnt railway station, the Germans erected a new station building, which was burnt down in 1944.

[henryk]

Hi WM

You may well be right that the temporary wooden (I think) building raised 1921-22, that was meant to serve the public for 10 years while the Dworzec Glowny was being built (and lasted, in effect following rebuilding after 1939, until 1944), may have been fomally called 'Dworzec Centralny Czasowy' (ie Temporary Central Station). If so Barthou did indeed arrive (and, I think, leave) from 'Warszawa Centralna' and there was no error. You are quite right that the photos are consistent with the temporary station, it could not be otherwise because the new Dworzec Glowny was opened (and even then only partially) in 1938. Colloquially the temporary structure was also called 'Dworzec Glowny' as it was part of the same site (now a more modest station 'Warszawa Srodmiescie') - hence the captions on the NAC photos of the Barthou visit and even on the reference you have cited above.

The Main Station was not at the site of Warszawa Srodmiescie, but to the northwest of the present Central Station.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Railway_Museum

Warsaw Railway Museum
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Stacja Muzeum is located at the former Warsaw Główna PKP railway terminus and is very close to the Warszawa Ochota railway station. The museum's exhibits are divided into permanent and temporary collections — the latter being displayed inside the museum's galleries. The permanent collection consists of historic rolling stock that is displayed on the tracks outside, including one of the few remaining armoured railway trains in Europe.[1] The museum also contains a library which houses many books on the subject of Polish railways.

During the interwar period the museum's headquarters were located at Nowy Zjazd Street.

The museum was reestablished at the present site, as Railway Museum in Warsaw (Muzeum Kolejnictwa w Warszawie), in 1972.

[wm]

There is no mention of Warsaw Central Station in the source given.

It was (sometimes) called Central because of the function it served. One source says that the first time the name was used was in 1903. But officially it was known as the Vienna Station, later Main Station.

[wm]

Major Beck was forced to leave France within a few hours.

There is one thing about that guy - Léon Noël. He was a quite consistent writer.
When he criticized (rather infrequently) Poland and Beck he mostly wrote nonsense.
When he praised (frequently) Poland and (sometimes) Beck he mostly wrote nonsense too.
He was some kind of a woke, "oh the humanity!" man, who understood little of what was going on, and that in contrast to his boss - a great realpolitik aficionado.

As in the case above when he repeats a factless story from a tabloid French newspaper. Beck supposedly was forced to leave France within a few hours and as a parting gift, he received the Officier the Legion of Honour!
And a few years later he got the highest of them all the Grand-Croix of the Legion of Honour!
Strange things they gave to thieves in France, no?

[DavidFrankenberg]

Major Beck was forced to leave France within a few hours.

As in the case above when he repeats a factless story from a tabloid French newspaper.

You should read more carefully, his source is not "french tabloids".

Beck supposedly was forced to leave France within a few hours and as a parting gift, he received the Officier the Legion of Honour!
And a few years later he got the highest of them all the Grand-Croix of the Legion of Honour!
Strange things they gave to thieves in France, no?

Still, Barthou was bad received, like Laval.
Beck was hostile to France, Czech, the democracies and the SU, that is to say his objectives allies. He admired Hitler and the nazi Germany. He received very well nazi envoys every time they came. He received badly his "allies" Barthou and Laval when they came.

[wm]

Yes, it was from a tabloid that claimed Beck was a German agent. It's an old and discredited story. Even communist historians denied it although for them Beck was pure evil.

Before the Warsaw Central Station was (partially) built (in 1939), there was no railway station suitable for pomp and circumstance, so no wonder Ribbentrop got a somewhat better welcome.
After all, Beck got pomp and circumstance during his unofficial visit to Berghof, so Ribbentrop got (somewhat pathetic, judging photos and videos) pomp and circumstance during the return visit too.

It's true that after it became painfully obvious in 1927 that "Poland could no longer count on the alliance" with France, the Poles tried to win back the Frech by various means. Usually, by demonstrating their independence and not denying rumors, they could have crossed to the "dark side" (although during talks, it was always denied.)
One example was the German-Polish declaration of non-aggression signed without consulting the French, although the alliance required it (not that the French were ever keen on consulting anything they did.)
But it was like French visitors were sent to a railway station in the stick where he promptly got stuck in mud up to his balls. That would be immature and stupid.
Of course, the poor Noël didn't understand anything and thought it was because Beck was a caught-in-the-act thief.

[gebhk]

Hi David
Unfortunately, given the gross factual errors in Noels account one cannot treat anything he says seriously. To whit:

When he arrived in Warsaw the year before, to avoid being cheered on by the crowd waiting for him in front of the main station, Louis Barthou had been taken off the train at a small, eccentric station.

Rubbish, he was greeted at one of the two main stations of Warsaw. If the aim was to avoid the cheering crowds, then the exercise was an abject failure because there were large crowds everywhere he went. Driving around in an open car about the streets of Krakow seems a particualrly inane method of avoiding cheering crowds!

When it was Pierre Laval's turn, security reasons were invoked to receive him at the same station with the minimum of pomp and assistance.

Rubbish, he was met at a different station - Warsaw east. Also one of the two main stations of Warsaw at the time. The same one as Ribbentrop.

The photos did not contradict Noël indeed.

The photos utterly contradict Noel on these points.
Given that he can't get these simple facts right, I have little faith in his unverifiable gossip and speculation. I would suggest AAN 2/322/0/2/491 would be a much more reliable source on what actually transpired. Alas it is not available online so I wonder if anyone has a copy?

[gebhk]

Still, Barthou was bad received, like Laval.

You keep repeating this as if it were a fact. It isn't, its your judgement based on one account which has, so far, been proven wrong in every verifiable detail.

Hi WM

And the thing is, before the Warsaw Central Station was (partially) built in 1939 there wasn't really in Warsaw a railway station suitable for pomp and circumstance, so no wonder Ribbentrop got a somewhat better welcome in the huge new station (one of the largest in Europe.)

The only fly in the ointment of that argument, is that Ribbentrop was not received at the Dworzec Glowny (Main Station) but at the old Warsaw East (Warszawa Wschodnia) station, same as Laval. This is confirmed by the photos because, for one thing, the platforms of the new Main Station were below ground. It was Himmler, visiting in February 1939, in his capacity as Police chief, who was welcomed at the Main Station.

[DavidFrankenberg]

Yes, it was from a tabloid that claimed Beck was a German agent. It's an old and discredited story. Even communist historians denied it although for them Beck was pure evil.

Noël does not quote any "tabloid". He is citing inside informers from within the ministry who personally talked to him.

Let me quote him again :

Several versions have been given to me of the reasons for this decision. According to some, taking account (...) It was also said that (...) It was also said that

[wm]

Beck was hostile to France, Czech, the democracies and the SU, that is to say his objectives allies. He admired Hitler and the nazi Germany. He received very well nazi envoys every time they came. He received badly his "allies" Barthou and Laval when they came.

Yes, Beck hated everybody except Hitler - his true love.

This is the "love" according to facts, not speculations.

First draft of the report from the discussions between Minister Beck and Minister von Ribbentrop during the latter's visit to Warsaw on 26 January 1939
…
Ribbentrop expressed satisfaction regarding his visit to Warsaw and understanding that perhaps the question had not been sufficiently prepared, given that his visit had been brought forward. He fears that the Chancellor might not have been well understood by Minister Beck. The Chancellor views the situation from the perspective of centuries. Germany has in many places undone the Versailles Treaty. The Chancellor, however, is ready to give up territorial claims against Poland, but is encountering much internal opposition on this point. He is ready, however, to push for it for the price of the extraterritorial road and the possibility of the Danzig population to realise the slogan Zuruck zum Reich. The Polish nation should understand how painful losing that territory was for the Germans.

Minister Beck replied that already in Berchtesgaden and Munich he had warned that this was a difficult and dangerous question.
As far as communications are concerned, his advice is to forget the term 'extraterritorial road', because Poland is not the Czech state.
Many things come to pass in politics and for this reason one has to hold on to certain fundamental notions, such as sovereignty, borders and territory. Poland is not a country governed by parliament, but changes to the state territory are constitutionally reserved for parliament and Minister Beck sees no possibility for himself to present this issue to parliament.
…
Ribbentrop … asks how the Berchtesgaden discussion was received in Poland. Minister Beck:
Couldn't be worse. It is difficult to find a justification for presenting the matter on such terms, as it is difficult to find a resolution. It is even more difficult to understand in Poland, as Poland has not done anything to limit the free internal development of Danzig's German population.
The Chancellor himself stressed the importance of access to the sea for Poland. This access is narrow and each metre of the coastline is valuable to us. Perhaps Mr. von Ribbentrop has some idea.

In any event, technicalities aside, it would seem that the mood in Poland is such that it is considered here that the Germans have had it so easy elsewhere that they are now trying their hand in Poland.
The Chancellor talked of arrangements beneficial for both sides, whereas German proposals represent a unilateral change of the existing state for the sole benefit of Germany.
The German guarantee is highly valuable, but who can say that some future German government won't revise its stand on this issue? In general—if we were to go ahead with the German suggestions—Poles will be asking their government why this is done. Where is the Gegenleistung? Mr. von Ribbentrop remembers the days when Danzig belonged to Germany. Poles remember the days when it belonged to Poland.

Minister Beck then said that since Mr. von Ribbentrop speaks of the matter openly, he also prefers to treat it entirely openly, because it is preferable to speak frankly than to engage in false courtesy.
When Ribbentrop attempted to suggest compensation in the Ukraine, Minister Beck replied that what he was proposing was not an object of compensation, as Minister Beck wouldn't even know what to do with such an object. If Germany were to propose a truly balanced arrangement, Minister Beck would not fear to present it to the public opinion in Poland.

The following day, i.e., on 27 January, Ribbentrop asked once again for more precision on this point, to which Minister Beck observed that he thought he had no right to make unilateral concessions and he advised Ribbentrop not to present the matter to the Chancellor in too optimistic a fashion.