Pilsudski's preventive war against Hitler in 1934 : fake or not ?

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DavidFrankenberg
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Re: Pilsudski's preventive war against Hitler in 1934 : fake or not ?

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 05 May 2022 21:18

Could you locate and date each photo please ? With link if you have.

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wm
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Re: Pilsudski's preventive war against Hitler in 1934 : fake or not ?

Post by wm » 06 May 2022 08:44

You need to search for their names here.

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Re: Pilsudski's preventive war against Hitler in 1934 : fake or not ?

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 06 May 2022 19:27

Since you posted the photos, i hoped that you would know.

I doubt that all your photos (especially with Beck) date from the arrival of Barthou.

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Re: Pilsudski's preventive war against Hitler in 1934 : fake or not ?

Post by wm » 06 May 2022 19:46

I know as a fact they do.
And people who want to use the site will know that too.

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Re: Pilsudski's preventive war against Hitler in 1934 : fake or not ?

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 06 May 2022 20:05

wm wrote:
06 May 2022 19:46
I know as a fact they do.
And people who want to use the site will know that too.
I did not manage to find the date and site of the photos.
If you succeed to do, could you give them please ?

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Re: Pilsudski's preventive war against Hitler in 1934 : fake or not ?

Post by wm » 06 May 2022 21:32

The date is on the left:
Pierre Laval.png
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Re: Pilsudski's preventive war against Hitler in 1934 : fake or not ?

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 06 May 2022 22:13

Thank you wm.

There is the year, the month, but not the day.

Noël said they received no welcome at their arrival. It means that the photos you showed referred to after their arrival.

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Re: Pilsudski's preventive war against Hitler in 1934 : fake or not ?

Post by wm » 06 May 2022 23:01

DavidFrankenberg wrote:
06 May 2022 22:13
Noël said they received no welcome at their arrival.
Yes! Nobody welcomed them and they had to scamper to their hotels crying their eyes out.
And all the photos of the honor guard treatment, formal balls and dinners, meetings were made in Photoshop.

Not only the relevant photos are precisely dated but marked as leaving the station/arriving at the station too.
btw Louis Barthou arrived at the Warsaw Central Station. Pierre Laval at the Warsaw East Station - at that time probably the largest of them all.
They weren't "secondary stations" by any stretch of the imagination.

They were not only welcomed in Warsaw (and later in Kraków) but on the Polish border too:
zbaszyn.jpg
zbaszyn1.jpg
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Re: Pilsudski's preventive war against Hitler in 1934 : fake or not ?

Post by wm » 07 May 2022 10:50

Pierre Laval.png
Louis Barthou.png
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Re: Pilsudski's preventive war against Hitler in 1934 : fake or not ?

Post by George L Gregory » 08 May 2022 10:43

wm wrote:
04 May 2022 07:29
So Poland could have avoided all the troubles by simply kissing his ring.
Do you think the Poles should have done that? :roll:

Why should they have given up their own sovereignty for an aggressor who was hell-bent on overtaking Eastern European to achieve living space for the Germans?

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Re: Pilsudski's preventive war against Hitler in 1934 : fake or not ?

Post by George L Gregory » 08 May 2022 10:48

@wm

I've read all of your replies on this thread.

So, am I right in thinking that you believe that the Poles should have just accepted any demand that Hitler gave to them?

Aren't you a Pole yourself? If so, that is seriously mind-boggling.

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Re: Pilsudski's preventive war against Hitler in 1934 : fake or not ?

Post by gebhk » 08 May 2022 12:58

Hi DavidFrankenberg
For example, when Ribbentrop visited Beck in january 1939, he was offered several bunchs of roses and his wife too. Beck and his wife were very enthusiastic. The train station was full of svastikas. It looked like a rock star was coming... cf. Paul Schmidt, Hitler's interpreter.
Then, compare with how Beck received Louis Barthou in 1934 and PIerre Laval in 1935 : they were landed in a secondary station with nothing to welcome them. cf Léon Noël, La Pologne entre deux mondes.
Since we've now apparently moved on from Pilsudski's 'Preventive war' to comparative etiquette studies with special reference to main railway station receptions, let's review.

Louis Barthou arrived at the Warsaw Main Station (the above caption is not entirely correct - the Warsaw Central Station was not built until 1972-75 and is situated in a different location to the pre-war Warsaw Main Station, never fully completed and destroyed by the Germans after the Warsaw Uprising; albeit, the caption error is probably a function of translation by Google rather than an actual mistake by the author) on 22.4.34. I haven't been able to acertain if he was met at the station by Beck, I suspect not, however, if not, he was met by the most senior relevant MSZ officials in his stead. The station was decorated with tri-colours (the French national flag). He was, then welcomed later that day by Beck with a fullsome speach. The following day, accompanied by Beck, he laid a wreath on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier and was saluted by an honour guard of the Polish Army. Later he met the President of Poland and Marshal Pilsudski. He then spent two more days with Beck in Warsaw followed by a one-day trip with Beck to Krakow where he toured extensively and went on a motorcade parade, again acompanied by Beck and cheered by large enthusiastic crowds.

Pierre Laval arrived at the Warsaw East Station (while perhaps, not the most prestigious, it is now Warsaw's busiest station and, more importantly the terminus for international trains from the North-West, South and West - ironically, not the East. I have no reason to assume that it was any different in 1934/35, especially given that in 1934/35 Warsaw Main was a giant building site and the functional part of it was a temporary structure) on 10.5.35. He was met at the station by Beck. The station was decorated with tri-colours (the French national flag). The following day, 11.5.35, accompanied by Beck, he laid a wreath on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier and was saluted by an honour guard of the Polish Army. Later he met the President of Poland and was scheduled to meet Marshal Pilsudski. Unfortunately Pilsudski was too ill for that to happen (this was not a polite excuse, the Marshal died the following day (12.5.35) and Laval was back in Poland to attend his funeral on 18.6.35). Laval and Beck met three times for discussions before Laval left for Moscow on 12.5.35.

Joachim Ribbentrop arrived at the Warsaw East Station (while perhaps, not the most prestigious, it is now Warsaw's busiest station and, more importantly the terminus for international trains from the North-West, South and West - ironically, not the East. I have no reason to assume that it was any different in 1939, especially given that in 1939 Warsaw Main was still only partially opened and a giant building site and it had been damaged by a recent massive fire) on 25.1.39. He was met at the station by Beck and saluted by an honour guard of the Polish Army. The station was decorated with red/white flags with swasticas (the German national flag). The following day, 26.1.39, accompanied by Beck, he laid a wreath on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier and was, again, saluted by an honour guard of the Polish Army. He met the President of Poland and Marshal Rydz-Smigly, although I have been unable to ascertain if this was on the 26.1.39 - though this seems likely. I don't know how many times Ribbentrop and Beck met formally for discussions, before Ribbentrop left for Berlin on 27.1.39 from Warsaw East station.

It has to be admitted that Barthou got the worst deal station-wise, being received at Warsaw Main which, while the most prestigious, was under construction; and, apparently was not immediately met by Beck. On the other hand he stayed 5 days, mostly in Beck's company, got to meet Pilsudski and Moscicki privately and was treated to a guided tour of Krakow by Krakow's top dignitaries and worthies plus a motorcade with cheering crowds. Just my impression, but he seemed to have got the best of the popular turnout.

Laval and Ribbentrop, as far as I can see, got fairly even honours. Ribbentrop may have gotten an extra honour guard but Laval got a private audience with the President, while Ribbentrop seems to only have met Moscicki and Rydz-Smigly at a social event (Reception at the Royal Palabce).

I will leave to others to determine who got the most rock & roll star treatment. Leon Noel's patent tosh, I would put firmly into the 'feeble justifications for a bad conscience' file. Never good to rely on people with a huge axe to grind for facts without checking those facts first - especially when it is not that difficult as in this case.
I doubt that all your photos (especially with Beck) date from the arrival of Barthou.
Can you share the basis of your doubts? Did Barthou pay a state visit (or any other visit) to Poland more than once?
Last edited by gebhk on 08 May 2022 14:03, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Pilsudski's preventive war against Hitler in 1934 : fake or not ?

Post by gebhk » 08 May 2022 13:18

Hi George
Do you think the Poles should have done that? :roll
Why should they have given up their own sovereignty for an aggressor who was hell-bent on overtaking Eastern European to achieve living space for the Germans?
The first part, WM will answer for himself. The 'why' however is fairly obvious. Those countries that actively opposed Germany before and in the early stages of WW2, consistently suffered greater destruction and loss of life than their neighbours who 'kissed AHs ring'. It is, therefore, not at all an unreasonable argument, that that is exactly what Poland should have done because loss of sovereignty was inevitable regardless.

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Re: Pilsudski's preventive war against Hitler in 1934 : fake or not ?

Post by wm » 08 May 2022 18:32

gebhk wrote:
08 May 2022 12:58
Louis Barthou arrived at the Warsaw Main Station
The Warsaw Central Station actually existed (it was built in 1921):
dworzec_2.jpg
chmielna_dworzec_03.jpg
Its platforms lacked canopies and this is consistent with the photos of Barthou's arrival.
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Re: Pilsudski's preventive war against Hitler in 1934 : fake or not ?

Post by gebhk » 08 May 2022 19:50

Hi WM

You may well be right that the temporary wooden (I think) building raised 1921-22, that was meant to serve the public for 10 years while the Dworzec Glowny was being built (and lasted, in effect following rebuilding after 1939, until 1944), may have been fomally called 'Dworzec Centralny Czasowy' (ie Temporary Central Station). If so Barthou did indeed arrive (and, I think, leave) from 'Warszawa Centralna' and there was no error. You are quite right that the photos are consistent with the temporary station, it could not be otherwise because the new Dworzec Glowny was opened (and even then only partially) in 1938. Colloquially the temporary structure was also called 'Dworzec Glowny' as it was part of the same site (now a more modest station 'Warszawa Srodmiescie') - hence the captions on the NAC photos of the Barthou visit and even on the reference you have cited above.

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