Just how much support in Ukraine did Ukrainian nationalist leader Symon Petliura have?

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Just how much support in Ukraine did Ukrainian nationalist leader Symon Petliura have?

Post by Futurist » 12 Nov 2021 05:41

Just how much support in Ukraine did Ukrainian nationalist leader Symon Petliura have? I was wondering about this considering that I was wondering whether a more successful Polish performance in the Polish-Soviet War would have required Petliura's nominally independent Ukrainian state (which would have been created had Poland been more successful in this war) to be constantly propped up by Polish bayonets or whether Petliura's regime could have actually built a broad base of support in his nominally independent Ukrainian state, thus making him somewhat less dependent on Poland to prop him up than he would have otherwise been.

Anyway, what are your own thoughts on this?

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Re: Just how much support in Ukraine did Ukrainian nationalist leader Symon Petliura have?

Post by Eugen Pinak » 12 Nov 2021 13:44

It's a complicated question.
On one hand, Ukrainian peasantry was mostly against _any_ government, and Petlyra's UPR was not an exception.
On the other hand, hard fighting of pro-URL peasant rebels in 1921-1924 shows, that Petlyra's government did had support among the population.
IMHO, a lot will depend on the results of the post-war reconstruction efforts. The more successful they will be - the more popular support UPR will gave.

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Re: Just how much support in Ukraine did Ukrainian nationalist leader Symon Petliura have?

Post by Steve » 12 Nov 2021 16:05

To quote Wikipedia “News of Petliura's assassination in the summer of 1926 was marked by numerous revolts in eastern Ukraine” no mention of anything in Polish controlled western Ukraine. Petlyura was a member of the Kiev Rada set up in November 1918 and became its leader in February 1919. In October 1918 a Ukrainian conference in Lwow rejected union with East Ukraine. It appointed a new council headed by Kost Levytsky and on November1 they proclaimed the establishment of the West Ukrainian Republic. However, the two sides signed an act of union in January 1919.

In August 1919 Petlyura proposed to Pilsudski that he would renounce claims to East Galicia (western Ukraine) in return for Polish help to which Pilsudski agreed. The Poles controlled east Galicia by then. I'm guessing he did not consult with the west Ukrainian leadership or if he did took no notice of their protests. This seems to have gone down like a lead balloon with east Galician troops engaged in the allied attack on Kiev in August. They now agreed to cooperate with Denikin in protest at Petlyura giving up east Galicia.

I’m guessing that Petlyura was popular in east Ukraine and less popular in west Ukraine. Given the relative strength of the Soviet Union (once recovered from the civil war) and Poland there is no way the Poles could have propped up a Petlyura government.

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Re: Just how much support in Ukraine did Ukrainian nationalist leader Symon Petliura have?

Post by Futurist » 12 Nov 2021 21:01

Steve wrote:
12 Nov 2021 16:05
To quote Wikipedia “News of Petliura's assassination in the summer of 1926 was marked by numerous revolts in eastern Ukraine” no mention of anything in Polish controlled western Ukraine. Petlyura was a member of the Kiev Rada set up in November 1918 and became its leader in February 1919. In October 1918 a Ukrainian conference in Lwow rejected union with East Ukraine. It appointed a new council headed by Kost Levytsky and on November1 they proclaimed the establishment of the West Ukrainian Republic. However, the two sides signed an act of union in January 1919.

In August 1919 Petlyura proposed to Pilsudski that he would renounce claims to East Galicia (western Ukraine) in return for Polish help to which Pilsudski agreed. The Poles controlled east Galicia by then. I'm guessing he did not consult with the west Ukrainian leadership or if he did took no notice of their protests. This seems to have gone down like a lead balloon with east Galician troops engaged in the allied attack on Kiev in August. They now agreed to cooperate with Denikin in protest at Petlyura giving up east Galicia.
Why did the western Ukrainians reject union with eastern Ukraine in October 1918?
I’m guessing that Petlyura was popular in east Ukraine and less popular in west Ukraine. Given the relative strength of the Soviet Union (once recovered from the civil war) and Poland there is no way the Poles could have propped up a Petlyura government.
It's worth noting that one can have a pretty good defensive line on the Dnieper River (combined with the Daugava River, of course). But of course this would require Poland to expand into Belarus as well and for Poland to advance as far as Odessa and beyond in the south and as far as Kiev in the east. You can see this map to know what I mean here:

https://worldmapblank.com/wp-content/up ... rs-map.jpg

This would result in an east-west split of Ukraine along the Dnieper River and in most of Belarus ending up in the Polish orbit.

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Re: Just how much support in Ukraine did Ukrainian nationalist leader Symon Petliura have?

Post by Futurist » 12 Nov 2021 21:01

Eugen Pinak wrote:
12 Nov 2021 13:44
It's a complicated question.
On one hand, Ukrainian peasantry was mostly against _any_ government, and Petlyra's UPR was not an exception.
On the other hand, hard fighting of pro-URL peasant rebels in 1921-1924 shows, that Petlyra's government did had support among the population.
IMHO, a lot will depend on the results of the post-war reconstruction efforts. The more successful they will be - the more popular support UPR will gave.
What does URL stand for?

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Re: Just how much support in Ukraine did Ukrainian nationalist leader Symon Petliura have?

Post by wm » 12 Nov 2021 21:12

Independent Ukraine was going to be included in the peace treaty - to be accepted by the Soviets. So the Soviets wouldn't be a military threat but a political one.
The Polish bayonets wouldn't be needed against the USSR but internal enemies of Petlyura - prodded a little by the Soviets.

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Re: Just how much support in Ukraine did Ukrainian nationalist leader Symon Petliura have?

Post by Futurist » 12 Nov 2021 21:52

wm wrote:
12 Nov 2021 21:12
Independent Ukraine was going to be included in the peace treaty - to be accepted by the Soviets. So the Soviets wouldn't be a military threat but a political one.
The Soviets were willing to accept an independent pro-Polish Ukraine?
The Polish bayonets wouldn't be needed against the USSR but internal enemies of Petlyura - prodded a little by the Soviets.
The USSR could become much more of a military threat in due time.

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Re: Just how much support in Ukraine did Ukrainian nationalist leader Symon Petliura have?

Post by Steve » 13 Nov 2021 02:09

Mr Futurist, the web site below seems to give a good explanation of the byzantine politics among Ukrainians after WW1. If you haven’t already it might be interesting to check out the man who assassinated Simon Petylura in Paris Sholem Schwarzbard.

https://ipfs.fleek.co/ipfs/QmXoypizjW3W ... ublic.html

“Independent Ukraine was going to be included in the peace treaty - to be accepted by the Soviets.” Is this the Treaty of Brest Litovsk?

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Re: Just how much support in Ukraine did Ukrainian nationalist leader Symon Petliura have?

Post by Futurist » 13 Nov 2021 02:28

Steve wrote:
13 Nov 2021 02:09
Mr Futurist, the web site below seems to give a good explanation of the byzantine politics among Ukrainians after WW1.
Will read; thanks!
If you haven’t already it might be interesting to check out the man who assassinated Simon Petylura in Paris Sholem Schwarzbard.

https://ipfs.fleek.co/ipfs/QmXoypizjW3W ... ublic.html

“Independent Ukraine was going to be included in the peace treaty - to be accepted by the Soviets.” Is this the Treaty of Brest Litovsk?
Yes, I already know who killed Petliura in Paris. Personally, I think that this was a huge waste of a bullet and that this bullet would have been MUCH better off being put in Hitler's head instead of Petliura's, but of course that's with the benefit of hindsight. But Petliura wasn't a threat to anyone any longer in 1926, so ...

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Re: Just how much support in Ukraine did Ukrainian nationalist leader Symon Petliura have?

Post by Eugen Pinak » 15 Nov 2021 14:57

Futurist wrote:
12 Nov 2021 21:01
Eugen Pinak wrote:
12 Nov 2021 13:44
It's a complicated question.
On one hand, Ukrainian peasantry was mostly against _any_ government, and Petlyra's UPR was not an exception.
On the other hand, hard fighting of pro-URL peasant rebels in 1921-1924 shows, that Petlyra's government did had support among the population.
IMHO, a lot will depend on the results of the post-war reconstruction efforts. The more successful they will be - the more popular support UPR will gave.
What does URL stand for?
UPR = Ukrainian Peoples Republic
Futurist wrote:
12 Nov 2021 21:01
But Petliura wasn't a threat to anyone any longer in 1926, so ...
Soviets had different opinion on this matter.
They've actively tried lure all famous leaders of the UPR (Petliura, Grushevski and Vinnychenko) to their side. Though only Grushevski agreed to return to the Soviet Ukraine.

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