De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

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Gorque
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by Gorque » 31 Jan 2022 22:54

ljadw wrote:
31 Jan 2022 20:20
About the Gestapo : 80% of its investigations were responding on anonymous/or not denunciations .
It was the same for the Stasi, the KGB,etc..
Without informants,without the help of the population, every secret police is helpless .
And most of these people were not communists or Nazis or denounced other people for political motives :Angela Merkel also worked as informant for the Stasi, but no one has claimed that she was a communist .And her work for the Stasi was well known but did not prevent her to be 4 times German Bundeskanzler .
Hi ljadw:

Oh my! I have a far different narrative on this.
Also during those years, Angela Merkel made a crucial decision to turn down the Stasi. While finishing her studies at the end of the 1970s, she applied for an assistant professor’s post at an engineering school. Stasi officers demanded she sign up to inform on her co-workers to get the job. She says she refused, feeding the recruiters a line suggested by her parents: she wouldn’t make a good spy because she couldn’t keep her mouth shut. Turning down the feared secret police ended Merkel’s bid for the professorship; the regime wouldn’t let a person it considered ideologically suspect teach students. She took a post at the East German Academy of Sciences in Berlin, spending years in research and completing her Ph.D. in quantum chemistry in 1986. At the academy, she met Joachim Sauer, a quantum chemist five years her senior who became her second husband. Any work for the Stasi would have made a political career in reunited Germany impossible. Merkel found that out firsthand when Wolfgang Schnur, the head of Democratic Awakening, was exposed as an informer two weeks before East Germany’s 1990 election and quit in disgrace.
Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20170709045 ... s-politics

I've provided my source, what's yours?

gebhk
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by gebhk » 31 Jan 2022 23:29

You asked : ''a free election was held ? "
So was one? Because without that, how on earth can you know (or to quote your favourite phrase 'there is no proof') that
People are mostly not interested in politics and elections
: how many people do vote in the US and in Britain ?
Is irrelevant, they are not Russians in 1958

Once again you demonstrate perfectly the pointlessness of making sweeping generalisations based on assumptions without reliable (or any) metrics.

ljadw
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by ljadw » 01 Feb 2022 07:25

wm wrote:
31 Jan 2022 22:10
ljadw wrote:
31 Jan 2022 16:00
A dictatorial regime does not need the support of the army /the Cheka to survive,and if it needs this support the result is the end of the regime .
Take the USSR :after the death of Stalin, the Cheka lost most of its power, the Gulag was shut down,the army was not used to stop the liberalization of the regime and what was the result ?
No revolts .
1958 Grozny riots
1956 Tbilisi riots
Kengir uprising
Vorkuta uprising
Norilsk uprising
Ekibastuz strike
Novocherkassk massacre

Poznań protests of 1956
Hungarian Revolution of 1956

"the Cheka lost most of its power", "the army was not used to stop the liberalization" is as false as it gets.
As far as I know,but I could be wrong,Poland and Hungary are not parts of the Soviet Union .And the Vorkuta uprising was a revolt from political prisoners to be liberated as were common criminals . Opposite to the Stalin days,after the revolt was crushed,there were no reprisals .And a few years after the uprising the camp was closed .
All the examples you are giving were insignificant events without any influence on the evolution of the regime .
And the reasons for the Novocherkassk revolt were apolitical .
And ,yes,the Cheka lost most of its power : the Gulag was dismantled .

ljadw
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by ljadw » 01 Feb 2022 07:37

Gorque wrote:
31 Jan 2022 22:54
ljadw wrote:
31 Jan 2022 20:20
About the Gestapo : 80% of its investigations were responding on anonymous/or not denunciations .
It was the same for the Stasi, the KGB,etc..
Without informants,without the help of the population, every secret police is helpless .
And most of these people were not communists or Nazis or denounced other people for political motives :Angela Merkel also worked as informant for the Stasi, but no one has claimed that she was a communist .And her work for the Stasi was well known but did not prevent her to be 4 times German Bundeskanzler .
Hi ljadw:

Oh my! I have a far different narrative on this.
Also during those years, Angela Merkel made a crucial decision to turn down the Stasi. While finishing her studies at the end of the 1970s, she applied for an assistant professor’s post at an engineering school. Stasi officers demanded she sign up to inform on her co-workers to get the job. She says she refused, feeding the recruiters a line suggested by her parents: she wouldn’t make a good spy because she couldn’t keep her mouth shut. Turning down the feared secret police ended Merkel’s bid for the professorship; the regime wouldn’t let a person it considered ideologically suspect teach students. She took a post at the East German Academy of Sciences in Berlin, spending years in research and completing her Ph.D. in quantum chemistry in 1986. At the academy, she met Joachim Sauer, a quantum chemist five years her senior who became her second husband. Any work for the Stasi would have made a political career in reunited Germany impossible. Merkel found that out firsthand when Wolfgang Schnur, the head of Democratic Awakening, was exposed as an informer two weeks before East Germany’s 1990 election and quit in disgrace.
Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20170709045 ... s-politics

I've provided my source, what's yours?
Your ''source '' is what Merkel said. You have the right to believe her . I have the right not to believe her .NO ONE could make a career in the DDR without working for,collaborating with the Stasi .

ljadw
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by ljadw » 01 Feb 2022 07:52

The Stasi had 5,5 million files and arrested 250000 persons.After the reunification most of the names of the informants were kept secret . For obvious reasons .Even West German members of the Bundestag worked for the Stasi .Holger Friedrich,owner of the Berliner Zeitung,worked for the Stasi . Everyone spied on everyone .

ljadw
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by ljadw » 01 Feb 2022 08:00

About Merkel : she blocked the publication of her Stasi file . That is sufficient proof .

gebhk
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by gebhk » 01 Feb 2022 10:12

As far as I know,but I could be wrong,Poland and Hungary are not parts of the Soviet Union .
Currently (and the inhabitants would in the vast majority add 'fortunately') not, nor is the relevant body called the Soviet Unuoion any longer. At the time in question, many would argue Poland and Hungary was a part of the Soviet Union as makes little difference with regard to who ruled there - which is what we are talking about here.

And since the revolts that are mentioned were put down by the armed forces and not, as far as i know, by the populace at large eager to continue receiving the bountiful welfare you say they were, that rather supports the view that the armed forces are what is required to keep totalitarianisms in power and not the 'support of the people'.

Do you really believe that the form of government that was imposed on Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary etc after WW2 would have been in power for 5 minutes were it not supported by Soviet guns? Or do you think it remained because the people 'were not interested in elections and voting?'. It would appear that as soon as said Soviet guns were removed from the equation, people became quite interested in elections and voting which rather supports the first of these propositions.

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Gorque
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by Gorque » 01 Feb 2022 13:58

ljadw wrote:
01 Feb 2022 07:37
Gorque wrote:
31 Jan 2022 22:54
ljadw wrote:
31 Jan 2022 20:20
About the Gestapo : 80% of its investigations were responding on anonymous/or not denunciations .
It was the same for the Stasi, the KGB,etc..
Without informants,without the help of the population, every secret police is helpless .
And most of these people were not communists or Nazis or denounced other people for political motives :Angela Merkel also worked as informant for the Stasi, but no one has claimed that she was a communist .And her work for the Stasi was well known but did not prevent her to be 4 times German Bundeskanzler .
Hi ljadw:

Oh my! I have a far different narrative on this.
Also during those years, Angela Merkel made a crucial decision to turn down the Stasi. While finishing her studies at the end of the 1970s, she applied for an assistant professor’s post at an engineering school. Stasi officers demanded she sign up to inform on her co-workers to get the job. She says she refused, feeding the recruiters a line suggested by her parents: she wouldn’t make a good spy because she couldn’t keep her mouth shut. Turning down the feared secret police ended Merkel’s bid for the professorship; the regime wouldn’t let a person it considered ideologically suspect teach students. She took a post at the East German Academy of Sciences in Berlin, spending years in research and completing her Ph.D. in quantum chemistry in 1986. At the academy, she met Joachim Sauer, a quantum chemist five years her senior who became her second husband. Any work for the Stasi would have made a political career in reunited Germany impossible. Merkel found that out firsthand when Wolfgang Schnur, the head of Democratic Awakening, was exposed as an informer two weeks before East Germany’s 1990 election and quit in disgrace.
Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20170709045 ... s-politics

I've provided my source, what's yours?
Your ''source '' is what Merkel said. You have the right to believe her . I have the right not to believe her .NO ONE could make a career in the DDR without working for,collaborating with the Stasi .
So, once again, you have nothing to support your statement, which means it is nothing more than an opinion.

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Gorque
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by Gorque » 01 Feb 2022 14:02

ljadw wrote:
01 Feb 2022 07:52
The Stasi had 5,5 million files and arrested 250000 persons.After the reunification most of the names of the informants were kept secret . For obvious reasons .Even West German members of the Bundestag worked for the Stasi .Holger Friedrich,owner of the Berliner Zeitung,worked for the Stasi . Everyone spied on everyone .
More insinuation based upon a miniscule return from a data-set. Afterall Holger Friedrich did it, therefor,every German in existence during the lifetime of the DDR did.

Another example of dishonest broad-brushing.

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Gorque
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by Gorque » 01 Feb 2022 14:15

ljadw wrote:
01 Feb 2022 08:00
About Merkel : she blocked the publication of her Stasi file . That is sufficient proof .
And your source is?

Or are you confusing the above with Merkel being blocked from viewing her NSA file?

ljadw
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by ljadw » 01 Feb 2022 15:54

Gorque wrote:
01 Feb 2022 13:58
ljadw wrote:
01 Feb 2022 07:37
Gorque wrote:
31 Jan 2022 22:54
ljadw wrote:
31 Jan 2022 20:20
About the Gestapo : 80% of its investigations were responding on anonymous/or not denunciations .
It was the same for the Stasi, the KGB,etc..
Without informants,without the help of the population, every secret police is helpless .
And most of these people were not communists or Nazis or denounced other people for political motives :Angela Merkel also worked as informant for the Stasi, but no one has claimed that she was a communist .And her work for the Stasi was well known but did not prevent her to be 4 times German Bundeskanzler .
Hi ljadw:

Oh my! I have a far different narrative on this.
Also during those years, Angela Merkel made a crucial decision to turn down the Stasi. While finishing her studies at the end of the 1970s, she applied for an assistant professor’s post at an engineering school. Stasi officers demanded she sign up to inform on her co-workers to get the job. She says she refused, feeding the recruiters a line suggested by her parents: she wouldn’t make a good spy because she couldn’t keep her mouth shut. Turning down the feared secret police ended Merkel’s bid for the professorship; the regime wouldn’t let a person it considered ideologically suspect teach students. She took a post at the East German Academy of Sciences in Berlin, spending years in research and completing her Ph.D. in quantum chemistry in 1986. At the academy, she met Joachim Sauer, a quantum chemist five years her senior who became her second husband. Any work for the Stasi would have made a political career in reunited Germany impossible. Merkel found that out firsthand when Wolfgang Schnur, the head of Democratic Awakening, was exposed as an informer two weeks before East Germany’s 1990 election and quit in disgrace.
Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20170709045 ... s-politics

I've provided my source, what's yours?
Your ''source '' is what Merkel said. You have the right to believe her . I have the right not to believe her .NO ONE could make a career in the DDR without working for,collaborating with the Stasi .
So, once again, you have nothing to support your statement, which means it is nothing more than an opinion.
You have nothing to support your claim that Merkel refused to work for the Stasi,unless her own words .
The fact that she GOT a promotion ( a job at the Academy of Sciences ) proves she worked for the Stasi .There is also the fact that her parents were convinced communists who left West Germany for the DDR and that she got the permission to travel abroad : some one who refused to work for the Stasi would be blacklisted and would not have the permission to travel to the West .

ljadw
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by ljadw » 01 Feb 2022 16:04

Gorque wrote:
01 Feb 2022 14:02
ljadw wrote:
01 Feb 2022 07:52
The Stasi had 5,5 million files and arrested 250000 persons.After the reunification most of the names of the informants were kept secret . For obvious reasons .Even West German members of the Bundestag worked for the Stasi .Holger Friedrich,owner of the Berliner Zeitung,worked for the Stasi . Everyone spied on everyone .
More insinuation based upon a miniscule return from a data-set. Afterall Holger Friedrich did it, therefor,every German in existence during the lifetime of the DDR did.

Another example of dishonest broad-brushing.
5,5 million inhabitants of the DDR were filed by the Stasi (a third of the population ) ,but were not put in prison: they were obliged to spy on their neighbours .Such practices are common to all dictatorships :during WW 2 the Gestapo in Belgium and France was overwhelmed by denunciations from women accusing their husbands, from men accusing their wifes, children their parents , etc ..
The number of convinced communists was negligible in the DDR :the only way for the regime to survive was to force the average East German to spy on the others .
Most files of informants are still kept secret,to avoid a virtual civil war in East Germany .Merkel also keeps her dossier secret .
You have no notion how it is to life in a dictatorship .

ljadw
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by ljadw » 01 Feb 2022 16:13

gebhk wrote:
01 Feb 2022 10:12
As far as I know,but I could be wrong,Poland and Hungary are not parts of the Soviet Union .
Currently (and the inhabitants would in the vast majority add 'fortunately') not, nor is the relevant body called the Soviet Unuoion any longer. At the time in question, many would argue Poland and Hungary was a part of the Soviet Union as makes little difference with regard to who ruled there - which is what we are talking about here.

And since the revolts that are mentioned were put down by the armed forces and not, as far as i know, by the populace at large eager to continue receiving the bountiful welfare you say they were, that rather supports the view that the armed forces are what is required to keep totalitarianisms in power and not the 'support of the people'.

Do you really believe that the form of government that was imposed on Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary etc after WW2 would have been in power for 5 minutes were it not supported by Soviet guns? Or do you think it remained because the people 'were not interested in elections and voting?'. It would appear that as soon as said Soviet guns were removed from the equation, people became quite interested in elections and voting which rather supports the first of these propositions.
Elections and voting are luxuries most people on earth can not afford .
Hungary was the only country where a revolt was crushed by the Soviets,and the reason is that the revolt had become uncontrollable .
In Poland the Soviets YIELDED : when the Kremlin delegation arrived in Warsaw ,they were received by the Poles who DEMANDED concessions ,and got them :Rokossovski was fired and the Soviets gave up because they no longer had the power to crush the Polish demands and because the Poles were that careful not to go too far .
The fact remains that Gomulka and his successor had to leave because the Polish population revolted, and NOT for political reasons . And Gomulka and his succor did not dare to use the army against the strikers .

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Gorque
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by Gorque » 01 Feb 2022 16:38

ljadw wrote:
01 Feb 2022 15:54
Gorque wrote:
01 Feb 2022 13:58
ljadw wrote:
01 Feb 2022 07:37
Gorque wrote:
31 Jan 2022 22:54
ljadw wrote:
31 Jan 2022 20:20
About the Gestapo : 80% of its investigations were responding on anonymous/or not denunciations .
It was the same for the Stasi, the KGB,etc..
Without informants,without the help of the population, every secret police is helpless .
And most of these people were not communists or Nazis or denounced other people for political motives :Angela Merkel also worked as informant for the Stasi, but no one has claimed that she was a communist .And her work for the Stasi was well known but did not prevent her to be 4 times German Bundeskanzler .
Hi ljadw:

Oh my! I have a far different narrative on this.
Also during those years, Angela Merkel made a crucial decision to turn down the Stasi. While finishing her studies at the end of the 1970s, she applied for an assistant professor’s post at an engineering school. Stasi officers demanded she sign up to inform on her co-workers to get the job. She says she refused, feeding the recruiters a line suggested by her parents: she wouldn’t make a good spy because she couldn’t keep her mouth shut. Turning down the feared secret police ended Merkel’s bid for the professorship; the regime wouldn’t let a person it considered ideologically suspect teach students. She took a post at the East German Academy of Sciences in Berlin, spending years in research and completing her Ph.D. in quantum chemistry in 1986. At the academy, she met Joachim Sauer, a quantum chemist five years her senior who became her second husband. Any work for the Stasi would have made a political career in reunited Germany impossible. Merkel found that out firsthand when Wolfgang Schnur, the head of Democratic Awakening, was exposed as an informer two weeks before East Germany’s 1990 election and quit in disgrace.
Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20170709045 ... s-politics

I've provided my source, what's yours?
Your ''source '' is what Merkel said. You have the right to believe her . I have the right not to believe her .NO ONE could make a career in the DDR without working for,collaborating with the Stasi .
So, once again, you have nothing to support your statement, which means it is nothing more than an opinion.
You have nothing to support your claim that Merkel refused to work for the Stasi,unless her own words .
The fact that she GOT a promotion ( a job at the Academy of Sciences ) proves she worked for the Stasi .There is also the fact that her parents were convinced communists who left West Germany for the DDR and that she got the permission to travel abroad : some one who refused to work for the Stasi would be blacklisted and would not have the permission to travel to the West .
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Please keep trying, for the more bizarre your posts become, the more they entertain.
Last edited by Gorque on 01 Feb 2022 16:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Gorque
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by Gorque » 01 Feb 2022 16:43

ljadw wrote:
01 Feb 2022 16:04
Gorque wrote:
01 Feb 2022 14:02
ljadw wrote:
01 Feb 2022 07:52
The Stasi had 5,5 million files and arrested 250000 persons.After the reunification most of the names of the informants were kept secret . For obvious reasons .Even West German members of the Bundestag worked for the Stasi .Holger Friedrich,owner of the Berliner Zeitung,worked for the Stasi . Everyone spied on everyone .
More insinuation based upon a miniscule return from a data-set. Afterall Holger Friedrich did it, therefor,every German in existence during the lifetime of the DDR did.

Another example of dishonest broad-brushing.
5,5 million inhabitants of the DDR were filed by the Stasi (a third of the population ) ,but were not put in prison: they were obliged to spy on their neighbours .Such practices are common to all dictatorships :during WW 2 the Gestapo in Belgium and France was overwhelmed by denunciations from women accusing their husbands, from men accusing their wifes, children their parents , etc ..
The number of convinced communists was negligible in the DDR :the only way for the regime to survive was to force the average East German to spy on the others .
Most files of informants are still kept secret,to avoid a virtual civil war in East Germany .Merkel also keeps her dossier secret .
You have no notion how it is to life in a dictatorship .
I've noticed that you haven't responded to my other post which asks that you produce evidence of Merkel keeping her dossier secret.

Where is the evidence of Merkel keeping her dossier secret?

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