De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

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henryk
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by henryk » 18 Jan 2022 21:33

gebhk wrote:
18 Jan 2022 09:52
Ijadw and Henryk
If the NYT in general and Duranty in particular were such wholesale deniers of the Hlodomor and the Soviet famine as you say, it should be easy to support your argument with actual evidence in the form of articles from these sources. Yet, so far you seem to have provided reams of other peoples opinion and hearsay (what I am, perhaps overly puckishly, describing as 'blah') instead. To the un-invested bystander like myself, when reams of blah are cited in support of an argument when actual and convincing evidence should be easy to find, suggests a smokescreen is being put up to cover the fact that the argument is either deeply flawed or baseless. Your adversaries have provided a bunch of primary evidence that Duranty and the NYT did the opposite of what you say ie they did in fact report the Soviet famine. Therefore, so far, your adversaries are winning this debate hands down and have managed to prove beyond resonable doubt, that Duranty and the NYT were NOT denying the Soviet famine - at least some of the time.

So have at it - no more blah, let's have the actual articles that support your argument.
I am not a NY Times subscriber.
From post 474, can anyone post the articles from 31 March 1933 and 21 Aug 1933?
Reporting the 1932–1933 famine
In The New York Times on 31 March 1933, Walter Duranty denounced reports of a famine and, in particular, he attacked Gareth Jones, a British journalist who had witnessed the starving in Ukraine and issued a widely published press release about their plight two days earlier in Berlin. (Jones' release was itself immediately preceded by three unsigned articles by Malcolm Muggeridge describing the famine in the Manchester Guardian.)[14]

Under the title "Russians Hungry, But Not Starving" Duranty's article described the situation as follows:

In the middle of the diplomatic duel between Great Britain and the Soviet Union over the accused British engineers, there appears from a British source a big scare story in the American press about famine in the Soviet Union, with "thousands already dead and millions menaced by death from starvation".

Five months later (23 August 1933), in another New York Times article, Duranty wrote:

Any report of a famine in Russia is today an exaggeration or malignant propaganda. The food shortage, however, which has affected the whole population in the last year and particularly in the grain-producing provinces – the Ukraine, North Caucasus [i.e. Kuban Region], and the Lower Volga – has, however, caused heavy loss of life.

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by ljadw » 18 Jan 2022 21:59

Gorque wrote:
18 Jan 2022 16:11
ljadw wrote:
18 Jan 2022 15:30
Gorque wrote:
17 Jan 2022 15:59
ljadw wrote:
17 Jan 2022 14:38
According to Drax :lol:
The PM did not want to have the Soviets on board in case of war,neither did the Poles .Thus :the mission was only propaganda.
Drax was an admiral ,without any competence of land war .
Vansittart had been fired ,was labelled as unstable by Eden and as hostile to HMG's policy .
If Chamberlain wanted to negotiate with the Soviets, he would send Halifax/Cadogan and Gort/Ironside .
Besides :WHY would Chamberlain want to negotiate with the Soviets ? Poland refused,rightly, to negotiate with the Soviets .
And Chamberlain knew very well what the Soviets would demand in exchange for their intervention .
So basically what you are saying is that you have no evidence to counter the fact that Drax was chosen as a member of a military delegation to seek a deal with the Soviets despite my having provided proof to you. Good to know! :roll:
The military delegation had not as aim to seek a deal with the Soviets .
And your evidence to support your position is....where?

C'mon Ludo, I've provided three articles and you've provided....ZERO.
Articles from the NYT are not proofs, but claims .

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by ljadw » 18 Jan 2022 22:06

gebhk wrote:
18 Jan 2022 19:42
High ranking ?
an Admiral,a major general,an air marshal (=lt general of the air force ) .
Admiral, major general and air marshall are high ranks by any measure.
By any measure ? :lol:

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wm
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by wm » 18 Jan 2022 22:11

Reporting the 1932–1933 famine
In The New York Times on 31 March 1933, Walter Duranty denounced reports of a famine and, in particular, he attacked Gareth Jones, a British journalist who had witnessed the starving in Ukraine and issued a widely published press release about their plight two days earlier in Berlin. (Jones' release was itself immediately preceded by three unsigned articles by Malcolm Muggeridge describing the famine in the Manchester Guardian.)[14]

Under the title "Russians Hungry, But Not Starving" Duranty's article described the situation as follows:

In the middle of the diplomatic duel between Great Britain and the Soviet Union over the accused British engineers, there appears from a British source a big scare story in the American press about famine in the Soviet Union, with "thousands already dead and millions menaced by death from starvation".

Five months later (23 August 1933), in another New York Times article, Duranty wrote:

Any report of a famine in Russia is today an exaggeration or malignant propaganda. The food shortage, however, which has affected the whole population in the last year and particularly in the grain-producing provinces – the Ukraine, North Caucasus [i.e. Kuban Region], and the Lower Volga – has, however, caused heavy loss of life.
The first one is a hostile interpretation of his article, the second (I've already posted that one) - is malicious.

Gareth Jones was his colleague, "a man of a keen and active mind" as Duranty wrote, and added, "I believe him."
Duranty actually extensively consulted Gareth Jones before writing his article.
"he attacked Gareth Jones" is politicized bst.
jones.jpg
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by ljadw » 18 Jan 2022 22:18

henryk wrote:
18 Jan 2022 21:33
gebhk wrote:
18 Jan 2022 09:52
Ijadw and Henryk
If the NYT in general and Duranty in particular were such wholesale deniers of the Hlodomor and the Soviet famine as you say, it should be easy to support your argument with actual evidence in the form of articles from these sources. Yet, so far you seem to have provided reams of other peoples opinion and hearsay (what I am, perhaps overly puckishly, describing as 'blah') instead. To the un-invested bystander like myself, when reams of blah are cited in support of an argument when actual and convincing evidence should be easy to find, suggests a smokescreen is being put up to cover the fact that the argument is either deeply flawed or baseless. Your adversaries have provided a bunch of primary evidence that Duranty and the NYT did the opposite of what you say ie they did in fact report the Soviet famine. Therefore, so far, your adversaries are winning this debate hands down and have managed to prove beyond resonable doubt, that Duranty and the NYT were NOT denying the Soviet famine - at least some of the time.

So have at it - no more blah, let's have the actual articles that support your argument.
I am not a NY Times subscriber.
From post 474, can anyone post the articles from 31 March 1933 and 21 Aug 1933?
Reporting the 1932–1933 famine
In The New York Times on 31 March 1933, Walter Duranty denounced reports of a famine and, in particular, he attacked Gareth Jones, a British journalist who had witnessed the starving in Ukraine and issued a widely published press release about their plight two days earlier in Berlin. (Jones' release was itself immediately preceded by three unsigned articles by Malcolm Muggeridge describing the famine in the Manchester Guardian.)[14]

Under the title "Russians Hungry, But Not Starving" Duranty's article described the situation as follows:

In the middle of the diplomatic duel between Great Britain and the Soviet Union over the accused British engineers, there appears from a British source a big scare story in the American press about famine in the Soviet Union, with "thousands already dead and millions menaced by death from starvation".

Five months later (23 August 1933), in another New York Times article, Duranty wrote:

Any report of a famine in Russia is today an exaggeration or malignant propaganda. The food shortage, however, which has affected the whole population in the last year and particularly in the grain-producing provinces – the Ukraine, North Caucasus [i.e. Kuban Region], and the Lower Volga – has, however, caused heavy loss of life.
Duranty on March 30 1933 :''There is no actual starvation or deaths from starvation but there is widespread mortality from diseases due to malnutrition .''
Thus :Duranty DENIED that there was a starvation in the USSR on March 30 1933 although he knew and the editors of the NYT knew that there was a starvation in the USSR.
This proves that the NYT followed a pro communist and pro Soviet policy .
This is also proved when 3 years later Duranty and the editors of the NYT claimed that the Moscow trials were correct,although they knew that they were fabricated ..

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by ljadw » 18 Jan 2022 22:28

On March 14 1938,Harold Denny ,a henchman of Duranty ,wrote the following : ''Wide Plot shown by Moscow Trial .''
He was lying . It is the same as saying that the Protocols of the Elder of Sion were truthful .

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by gebhk » 18 Jan 2022 22:39

By any measure ? :lol:
Yes, of course. What amuses you so about such an obvious statement I cannot imagine, so please do share....

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by wm » 19 Jan 2022 00:21

As a comparison, to find out what the world knew about the famine at that time I've search The Times (the real one) for "Soviet famine" for the first six months of 1933.
Because obviously, judgmental opinions of "arm-chair generals" 90 years later are worthless.
And there were merely two hits.

"The Food Crisis in Russia - Result of Soviet Policy" of January 3, 1933, which without any evidence vaguely mentions a famine in one sentence.
And this below (that was the last month of the famine):
the times.png
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wm
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by wm » 19 Jan 2022 01:07

Generally, in the American and British press, it seems the famine was taken seriously only as late as June 1933.
The exception is Gareth Jones in "The Manchester Guardian" at the end of March. Obviously, it was circumstantial, weak evidence.
Although in the case of Kazakstan deadly accurate.
There are no useful hits for Gareth Jones in The Times for that period.
The NYT reported his observations and his response to Duranty's article on May 13, 1933.
Interestingly Jones writes "Walter Duranty, whom I must thank for his continued kindness and helpfulness."
Some might learn something from the civility and manners of those two men.
Gareth Jones.png
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wm
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by wm » 19 Jan 2022 01:38

The basic facts of mass hunger and death, although sometimes reported in the European and American press, never took on the clarity of an undisputed event. Almost no one claimed that Stalin meant to starve Ukrainians to death; even Adolf Hitler preferred to blame the Marxist system.

It was controversial to note that starvation was taking place at all. Gareth Jones did so in a handful of newspaper articles; it seems that he was the only one to do so in English under his own name ...
Aside from Jones, the only journalist to file serious reports in English was Malcolm Muggeridge, writing anonymously for the Manchester Guardian.
Timothy Snyder Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin

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wm
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by wm » 19 Jan 2022 09:56

So the story is the Soviet famine of 1932–1933 basically wasn't reported in English till it was over.
The exception was Gareth Jones and his obscure article - widely reprinted in the same obscure manner.
This is where it was placed in the Manchester Guardian, on page 12!:
Manchester Guardian.jpg
Under it there is a rebuttal basically saying it wasn't the Bolsheviks' fault - Russia was always like that.
No wonder Jones' article generated little reaction.

Duranty responded to that by saying he wasn't able to find evidence of famine - only of mass malnutrition which he attributed to the indifference of the animated by the fanatical conviction Bolsheviks.
But the main theme of his article was that the Bolsheviks would survive it just fine - which they did.

Since May the famine was correctly reported (at least by the NYT) although rarely and still it was an obscure subject.
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by ljadw » 19 Jan 2022 12:45

wm wrote:
19 Jan 2022 00:21
As a comparison, to find out what the world knew about the famine at that time I've search The Times (the real one) for "Soviet famine" for the first six months of 1933.
Because obviously, judgmental opinions of "arm-chair generals" 90 years later are worthless.
And there were merely two hits.

"The Food Crisis in Russia - Result of Soviet Policy" of January 3, 1933, which without any evidence vaguely mentions a famine in one sentence.
And this below (that was the last month of the famine):

the times.png
The world knew enough :People in Poland knew, people in Austria knew (there was a relief committee in Vienna ),but the leftist media in and outside the US hided,denied the existence of the famine,defended the actions from Stalin .
The FDR administration did the same,, but that was to be expected:
politicians lie
they could do nothing about it
it was not their business
and ideologically both administrations were not far away from each other

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by wm » 19 Jan 2022 14:04

It's not easy to find anything about the famine in the contemporary press. In "The Times" there is almost nothing.
In American newspapers nothing either.
But I found Muggeridge's article mentioned by Timothy Snyder, written at the end of March - basically at the end of the famine.
There is famine in his article, but no millions of victims.
Muggeridge on Soviet.jpg
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by Gorque » 19 Jan 2022 14:06

ljadw wrote:
18 Jan 2022 21:59
Gorque wrote:
18 Jan 2022 16:11
ljadw wrote:
18 Jan 2022 15:30
Gorque wrote:
17 Jan 2022 15:59
ljadw wrote:
17 Jan 2022 14:38
According to Drax :lol:
The PM did not want to have the Soviets on board in case of war,neither did the Poles .Thus :the mission was only propaganda.
Drax was an admiral ,without any competence of land war .
Vansittart had been fired ,was labelled as unstable by Eden and as hostile to HMG's policy .
If Chamberlain wanted to negotiate with the Soviets, he would send Halifax/Cadogan and Gort/Ironside .
Besides :WHY would Chamberlain want to negotiate with the Soviets ? Poland refused,rightly, to negotiate with the Soviets .
And Chamberlain knew very well what the Soviets would demand in exchange for their intervention .
So basically what you are saying is that you have no evidence to counter the fact that Drax was chosen as a member of a military delegation to seek a deal with the Soviets despite my having provided proof to you. Good to know! :roll:
The military delegation had not as aim to seek a deal with the Soviets .
And your evidence to support your position is....where?

C'mon Ludo, I've provided three articles and you've provided....ZERO.
Articles from the NYT are not proofs, but claims .
Articles from ANY newspaper consist of observations of the events unfolding as seen/heard by the reporter as well as verbatim statements i.e. quotations, made to the reporter.

PS: I never stated that the articles are "proofs" only that I had PROVIDED three articles to your none.

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by Gorque » 19 Jan 2022 14:08

ljadw wrote:
18 Jan 2022 22:06
gebhk wrote:
18 Jan 2022 19:42
High ranking ?
an Admiral,a major general,an air marshal (=lt general of the air force ) .
Admiral, major general and air marshall are high ranks by any measure.
By any measure ? :lol:


Was that supposed to be a counter argument? :roll:

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