De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

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Gorque
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by Gorque » 18 Jan 2022 14:19

In regards to Robert Vansittart:
Vansittart Moscow.PNG
From the dispatch, he was still regarded as useful, no?

Source: NYTimes June 8, 1939, p. 10
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by Gorque » 18 Jan 2022 14:28

Vansittart meets with Maisky no less!
Vansittart Maisky.PNG
I guess Vansittart was more than just a figurehead, eh?

Source: NYTimes, May 18, 1939, Front page
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by Gorque » 18 Jan 2022 14:36

Regarding the Drax led military mission to Moscow:
Drax 1.PNG
Drax 2.PNG
High ranking members of the Air Force, Army, & Navy were sent to Moscow.

Source: NYTimes, August 1, 1939, p. 4
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Gorque
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by Gorque » 18 Jan 2022 14:40

gebhk wrote:
18 Jan 2022 09:52
Hi Ijadw.

With respect, you did not say
that the PM can block a sitting MP from being candidate again for his own party in the same constituency
Which, incidentally, is also untrue as Terry Duncan explained in Post 421. What you did say is:
Downing Street 10 (= the PM ) can prevent sitting MPs from being again candidate ,
Which is completely untrue.
Thanks gebhk :thumbsup:

So ljadw...who is spreading misinformation?

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wm
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by wm » 18 Jan 2022 15:10

Gorque wrote:
18 Jan 2022 14:28
I guess Vansittart was more than just a figurehead, eh?

Lot's of Vansittart and meetings with him in "Maisky Diaries" for that period.
19 May
To my surprise, the reply from Moscow arrived on the 18th at 5 p.m. ... As I expected, the reply was brief and unambiguous: unacceptable.

I visited Vansittart in his flat today at 10.30 a.m. He did not seem surprised by our reply. It seems that he was fully prepared for it after our conversation in the evening of 17 May. He merely sighed and uttered, as if to himself:
'Well, it can't be helped. Looks like we'll have to get down to work again and think up something new.' ...

At 7 p.m. Vansittart asked me to drop by at his flat for a few minutes. When I entered the hall, he rushed to greet me and announced excitedly that he had good news to communicate.

The decision had just been taken to ask Seeds to inform the Soviet Government that as a result of the recent exchanges (the British proposal of 8 May and our counter-proposal of 14 May, and my talks with Halifax, Vansittart and others) the positions of the parties have been definitively clarified and the existing difficulties accurately identified.

The British Government would make every effort to overcome these difficulties and hoped to find the appropriate means to do so. However, the new proposals required a special decision by the whole Cabinet and would be adopted at its meeting on 24 May. ... Vansittart hopes that agreement will be reached next week.
I shook my head doubtfully and, taking my leave, teased in a now entirely unofficial manner: 'Admit it, Sir Robert, deep down you are pleased we have taken a firm stand!' Vansittart burst out laughing and exclaimed:
'Perhaps!'
17 May
Yesterday the Vansittarts came over for an 'intimate' lunch. We discussed international affairs at length, and above all the Anglo-Soviet negotiations.
...
Today, at 12.30 in the afternoon, Vansittart urgently summoned me to the FO.
...
This evening, at seven o'clock, Vansittart invited me once again to the FO.


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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by ljadw » 18 Jan 2022 15:15

I was talking of 1940,not of 2021 .
And you are doing a wild-goose chase :it is obvious that a Tory PM can not prevent a Labour MP to be candidate again .

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by ljadw » 18 Jan 2022 15:19

Gorque wrote:
18 Jan 2022 14:36
Regarding the Drax led military mission to Moscow:

Drax 1.PNG

Drax 2.PNG

High ranking members of the Air Force, Army, & Navy were sent to Moscow.

Source: NYTimes, August 1, 1939, p. 4
High ranking ?
an Admiral,a major general,an air marshal (=lt general of the air force ) .
The NYT proved again its incompetence .

ljadw
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by ljadw » 18 Jan 2022 15:27

Gorque wrote:
18 Jan 2022 14:19
In regards to Robert Vansittart:

Vansittart Moscow.PNG

From the dispatch, he was still regarded as useful, no?

Source: NYTimes June 8, 1939, p. 10
Much regret was expressed in competent quarters :lol: :lol: :lol:
Who were these competent quarters ?
The Grand Alliance of Churchill and LG was doomed to fail as every one knows .
Why ?
in 1914 there were two reasons for this Grand Alliance
1 Poland did not exist
2 Germany attacked Russia and not the opposite .If Germany had not attacked Russia,Russia would have remained neutral .
In 1939 the situation was the opposite
1 The existence of Poland had as result that Germany and Russia had no common border,which means that they could not fight against each other
2 Germany did not attack Russia .
If in 1914 Russia did not start a war against Germany,why would Russia start a war against Germany in 1939?

ljadw
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by ljadw » 18 Jan 2022 15:30

Gorque wrote:
17 Jan 2022 15:59
ljadw wrote:
17 Jan 2022 14:38
According to Drax :lol:
The PM did not want to have the Soviets on board in case of war,neither did the Poles .Thus :the mission was only propaganda.
Drax was an admiral ,without any competence of land war .
Vansittart had been fired ,was labelled as unstable by Eden and as hostile to HMG's policy .
If Chamberlain wanted to negotiate with the Soviets, he would send Halifax/Cadogan and Gort/Ironside .
Besides :WHY would Chamberlain want to negotiate with the Soviets ? Poland refused,rightly, to negotiate with the Soviets .
And Chamberlain knew very well what the Soviets would demand in exchange for their intervention .
So basically what you are saying is that you have no evidence to counter the fact that Drax was chosen as a member of a military delegation to seek a deal with the Soviets despite my having provided proof to you. Good to know! :roll:
The military delegation had not as aim to seek a deal with the Soviets .

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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by ljadw » 18 Jan 2022 16:06

About Churchill's deselection :

''On February 1 1939 Churchill was forced to defend his actions over Munich to avoid deselection organised largely by Ball ''
Source : Churchill's secret enemy (By Jonathan Pile )
And for those who would not know who was Ball :Google Sir Joseph Ball .Ball was a very close and powerful adviser of Chamberlain .
Other opponents of Chamberlain had been eliminated or were in difficulties :
The Duchess of Atholl, Richard Law (son of Bonar Law ),Robert Boothby
Source :Winston Churchill :the Prophet of Truth 1922-1939 .(Martin Gilbert )

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Gorque
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by Gorque » 18 Jan 2022 16:08

ljadw wrote:
18 Jan 2022 15:19
Gorque wrote:
18 Jan 2022 14:36
Regarding the Drax led military mission to Moscow:

Drax 1.PNG

Drax 2.PNG

High ranking members of the Air Force, Army, & Navy were sent to Moscow.

Source: NYTimes, August 1, 1939, p. 4
High ranking ?
an Admiral,a major general,an air marshal (=lt general of the air force ) .
The NYT proved again its incompetence .
As usual, more blah, blah from ljadw.

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Gorque
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by Gorque » 18 Jan 2022 16:09

ljadw wrote:
18 Jan 2022 15:27
Gorque wrote:
18 Jan 2022 14:19
In regards to Robert Vansittart:

Vansittart Moscow.PNG

From the dispatch, he was still regarded as useful, no?

Source: NYTimes June 8, 1939, p. 10
Much regret was expressed in competent quarters :lol: :lol: :lol:
Who were these competent quarters ?
The Grand Alliance of Churchill and LG was doomed to fail as every one knows .
Why ?
in 1914 there were two reasons for this Grand Alliance
1 Poland did not exist
2 Germany attacked Russia and not the opposite .If Germany had not attacked Russia,Russia would have remained neutral .
In 1939 the situation was the opposite
1 The existence of Poland had as result that Germany and Russia had no common border,which means that they could not fight against each other
2 Germany did not attack Russia .
If in 1914 Russia did not start a war against Germany,why would Russia start a war against Germany in 1939?
I suggest you refer to the NYTimes edition of June 8, 1939. I don't intend to do your research for you. :P
Last edited by Gorque on 18 Jan 2022 16:20, edited 1 time in total.

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Gorque
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by Gorque » 18 Jan 2022 16:11

ljadw wrote:
18 Jan 2022 15:30
Gorque wrote:
17 Jan 2022 15:59
ljadw wrote:
17 Jan 2022 14:38
According to Drax :lol:
The PM did not want to have the Soviets on board in case of war,neither did the Poles .Thus :the mission was only propaganda.
Drax was an admiral ,without any competence of land war .
Vansittart had been fired ,was labelled as unstable by Eden and as hostile to HMG's policy .
If Chamberlain wanted to negotiate with the Soviets, he would send Halifax/Cadogan and Gort/Ironside .
Besides :WHY would Chamberlain want to negotiate with the Soviets ? Poland refused,rightly, to negotiate with the Soviets .
And Chamberlain knew very well what the Soviets would demand in exchange for their intervention .
So basically what you are saying is that you have no evidence to counter the fact that Drax was chosen as a member of a military delegation to seek a deal with the Soviets despite my having provided proof to you. Good to know! :roll:
The military delegation had not as aim to seek a deal with the Soviets .
And your evidence to support your position is....where?

C'mon Ludo, I've provided three articles and you've provided....ZERO.

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Gorque
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by Gorque » 18 Jan 2022 16:13

wm wrote:
18 Jan 2022 15:10
Gorque wrote:
18 Jan 2022 14:28
I guess Vansittart was more than just a figurehead, eh?

Lot's of Vansittart and meetings with him in "Maisky Diaries" for that period.
19 May
To my surprise, the reply from Moscow arrived on the 18th at 5 p.m. ... As I expected, the reply was brief and unambiguous: unacceptable.

I visited Vansittart in his flat today at 10.30 a.m. He did not seem surprised by our reply. It seems that he was fully prepared for it after our conversation in the evening of 17 May. He merely sighed and uttered, as if to himself:
'Well, it can't be helped. Looks like we'll have to get down to work again and think up something new.' ...

At 7 p.m. Vansittart asked me to drop by at his flat for a few minutes. When I entered the hall, he rushed to greet me and announced excitedly that he had good news to communicate.

The decision had just been taken to ask Seeds to inform the Soviet Government that as a result of the recent exchanges (the British proposal of 8 May and our counter-proposal of 14 May, and my talks with Halifax, Vansittart and others) the positions of the parties have been definitively clarified and the existing difficulties accurately identified.

The British Government would make every effort to overcome these difficulties and hoped to find the appropriate means to do so. However, the new proposals required a special decision by the whole Cabinet and would be adopted at its meeting on 24 May. ... Vansittart hopes that agreement will be reached next week.
I shook my head doubtfully and, taking my leave, teased in a now entirely unofficial manner: 'Admit it, Sir Robert, deep down you are pleased we have taken a firm stand!' Vansittart burst out laughing and exclaimed:
'Perhaps!'
17 May
Yesterday the Vansittarts came over for an 'intimate' lunch. We discussed international affairs at length, and above all the Anglo-Soviet negotiations.
...
Today, at 12.30 in the afternoon, Vansittart urgently summoned me to the FO.
...
This evening, at seven o'clock, Vansittart invited me once again to the FO.

Some good information and another source regarding Vansittart. Thank you wm. :thumbsup:

gebhk
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Re: De Gaulle and French betrayal of Poland in Semptember 1939

Post by gebhk » 18 Jan 2022 19:42

High ranking ?
an Admiral,a major general,an air marshal (=lt general of the air force ) .
Admiral, major general and air marshall are high ranks by any measure. So who is being incompetent here? It certainly isn't the NYT.

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