Did the Lithuanians, Belarusians, Volhynian Ukrainians, and Jews under Polish rule prefer Polish rule to Russian rule?

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Re: Did the Lithuanians, Belarusians, Volhynian Ukrainians, and Jews under Polish rule prefer Polish rule to Russian rul

Post by Futurist » 09 Nov 2021 20:12

wm wrote:
09 Nov 2021 16:40
Communism penetrated deeply into the Polish Borderlands. The abjectly poor peasants were highly susceptible to it and, as usual, the intellectuals - there are some ideas so absurd that only an intellectual could believe them (George Orwell).
Communism was a very efficient parasite of the mind, because of its simplicity and "it's all for your own good" rhetorics.
Only religion and nationalism had some stopping power against it - and just barely as they themselves were under attack.
Did people in the Polish borderlands know about the 1930s Soviet famines?

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Re: Did the Lithuanians, Belarusians, Volhynian Ukrainians, and Jews under Polish rule prefer Polish rule to Russian rul

Post by henryk » 09 Nov 2021 22:29

Futurist wrote:
09 Nov 2021 20:12
wm wrote:
09 Nov 2021 16:40
Communism penetrated deeply into the Polish Borderlands. The abjectly poor peasants were highly susceptible to it and, as usual, the intellectuals - there are some ideas so absurd that only an intellectual could believe them (George Orwell).
Communism was a very efficient parasite of the mind, because of its simplicity and "it's all for your own good" rhetorics.
Only religion and nationalism had some stopping power against it - and just barely as they themselves were under attack.
Did people in the Polish borderlands know about the 1930s Soviet famines?
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=85211&hilit=ukraini ... e&start=15
message 13
#13Post by henryk » September 13th, 2005, 2:03 pm
What about the role of the West?
http://www.faminegenocide.com/print/facts.htm
8. Western Press Coverage
Foreign correspondents were "advised" by the press department of the Soviet Commissariat for Foreign Affairs to remain in Moscow and were de facto barred from visiting Ukraine.
Not a single Western newspaper or press agency protested publicly against the unprecedented confining of its correspondents in Moscow or bothered to investigate the reason for this extraordinary measure.
The majority of reporters feared losing their journalistic privileges and toed the line.
The only correspondents permitted into Ukraine were the likes of Walter Duranty of the New York Times who reported that there was no famine except for some "partial crop failures."
Star reporter Walter Duranty of the New York Times set the tone for most of the Western press coverage with authoritative denials of starvation and referred to the Famine as the "alleged ‘‘man-made' famine of 1933."
However, according to British Diplomatic Reports, Duranty off the record, conceded that "as many as 10 million" may have perished.
For his reporting Walter Duranty received the Pulitzer Prize for journalism. To this date the New York Times refuses to revoke the prize and still lists Duranty among its Pulitzer winners.
A number of intrepid reporters, such as William Henry Chamberlin, Harry Lang, Malcolm Muggeridge and Thomas Walker ignored the ban and reported on the Famine, substantiating their reports with photographs.

9. Collusion by Western Governments
Available archival evidence (such as reports sent in diplomatic pouches as well as coverage on the press by a few honest and courageous reporters who managed to penetrate into starving Ukraine) indicates that several Western governments (especially Great Britain, Canada and the United States) were well informed about the Famine-Genocide in Ukraine but chose to adopt a policy on non-interference in the internal affairs of a foreign sovereign state. Ironically, the United States recognized the Soviet Union in November, 1933.
Offers to aid the starving by numerous charitable organizations such as the International Red Cross, Save the Children Fund, the Vienna-based Interconfessional Relief Council and Ukrainian organizations in the West and Western Ukraine (occupied by Poland) were discouraged or blocked by their Governments.
10. Findings and Conclusions
The U.S. Congress 1988 Commission on the Ukraine famine in its "Investigation of the Ukraine Famine of 1932-1933" concluded that: JOSEPH STALIN AND THOSE AROUND HIM COMMITTED GENOCIDE AGAINST UKRAINIANS IN 1932-1933.
Ukrainian organizations in the West and Western Ukraine (occupied by Poland) were discouraged or blocked by their Governments.

Another source that I can not remember said the aid was stopped at the border by the USSR because there was no famine and the aid was not needed.

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Re: Did the Lithuanians, Belarusians, Volhynian Ukrainians, and Jews under Polish rule prefer Polish rule to Russian rul

Post by wm » 10 Nov 2021 00:28

Futurist wrote:
09 Nov 2021 20:12
Did people in the Polish borderlands know about the 1930s Soviet famines?
Soviet peasants crossed the border frequently (it wasn't that hard) trying to buy food. A glass of grain for example (that was like less than nothing) so the people were aware that it wasn't fun on the other side of the border at all.
Polish newspapers wrote about it but I think it wasn't front-page news. There were much less sensationalism, click-baiting, tabloidism, panics, and hate in them than today. So they mentioned it a few times and that was it.
There were still some amateur correspondents, "letter-writers" in Ukraine and they delivered some news. And I think letters could have been sent to Poland from the USSR.

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Re: Did the Lithuanians, Belarusians, Volhynian Ukrainians, and Jews under Polish rule prefer Polish rule to Russian rul

Post by Futurist » 10 Nov 2021 00:33

wm wrote:
10 Nov 2021 00:28
Futurist wrote:
09 Nov 2021 20:12
Did people in the Polish borderlands know about the 1930s Soviet famines?
Soviet peasants crossed the border frequently (it wasn't that hard) trying to buy food. A glass of grain for example (that was like less than nothing) so the people were aware that it wasn't fun on the other side of the border at all.
Polish newspapers wrote about it but I think it wasn't front-page news. There were much less sensationalism, click-baiting, tabloidism, panics, and hate in them than today. So they mentioned it a few times and that was it.
There were still some amateur correspondents, "letter-writers" in Ukraine and they delivered some news. And I think letters could have been sent to Poland from the USSR.
I'm surprised that Communism was still popular in the Kresy after all of that.

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Re: Did the Lithuanians, Belarusians, Volhynian Ukrainians, and Jews under Polish rule prefer Polish rule to Russian rul

Post by wm » 10 Nov 2021 00:50

The full extension of the calamity wasn't known, and famines happened earlier too.

The glorious goals of socialism were worthy of sacrifices anyway.
And on the road to socialism, mistakes were to be expected. Especially that class enemies and foreign imperialist wreckers/saboteurs were involved.
it was known that class war would intensify as socialism was progressively implemented - after all class enemies and imperialists were desperately fighting for their very survival.

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Re: Did the Lithuanians, Belarusians, Volhynian Ukrainians, and Jews under Polish rule prefer Polish rule to Russian rul

Post by SloveneLiberal » 11 Nov 2021 22:22

I suppose socialist economy was still not debunked so much as it is today. Apparently between people of different backgrounds it has some power or potential power.

For example also in Slovenia during WW2 many younger students were under the impression that socialism and communist party are really able to optimize investments by their planning and so bring some economic boom.

There are many problems with that but specially two are important. Planners can not know without following the market how consumers Will behave so they Will always end up in New and New controls and restrictions making huge problems in economy.

Also even when people are broken under government socialism Will by its nature block inovations, which are making people of course not equal. On the other hand political priviliges remained. So even when production is increased the products Will not sell so well as in capitalist economy.

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Re: Did the Lithuanians, Belarusians, Volhynian Ukrainians, and Jews under Polish rule prefer Polish rule to Russian rul

Post by SloveneLiberal » 11 Nov 2021 22:38

@HenryK i agree that USA or UK governments were downplaying the Ukraine famine. But if we talk about catholic Poland we should know that catholic church was very much writting/publishing about famine and communist terror in USSR. For example in Slovenia before WW2 there were two important books known to the public concerning the subject. One was Ukraine is crying and the other The factory of New Man written by mrs. Rahmanova.

In fact for some it was hard to believe all this was true because it sounded to much Wild and brutal.

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Re: Did the Lithuanians, Belarusians, Volhynian Ukrainians, and Jews under Polish rule prefer Polish rule to Russian rul

Post by wm » 11 Nov 2021 23:20

I don't think it's fair to say they were downplaying it. As nothing could have been done and it was in a faraway country they knew nothing about they (and media and the readers) simply weren't interested.

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Re: Did the Lithuanians, Belarusians, Volhynian Ukrainians, and Jews under Polish rule prefer Polish rule to Russian rul

Post by Futurist » 11 Nov 2021 23:45

wm wrote:
11 Nov 2021 23:20
I don't think it's fair to say they were downplaying it. As nothing could have been done and it was in a faraway country they knew nothing about they (and media and the readers) simply weren't interested.
They could have accepted any Ukrainian refugees that were lucky enough to have managed to have fled the USSR. But of course, that might have been a challenge with the mass unemployment in the West due to the Great Depression.

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Re: Did the Lithuanians, Belarusians, Volhynian Ukrainians, and Jews under Polish rule prefer Polish rule to Russian rul

Post by wm » 11 Nov 2021 23:59

The Ukrainian peasants were incapable of that, they didn't have the means, didn't have the mental capacity to do that.
In this, there were very similar to the Orthodox Jews.
That's in contrast with the German Jews in the thirties who got the attention, the sympathy of the entire world despite being mostly inconvenient that killed.

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Re: Did the Lithuanians, Belarusians, Volhynian Ukrainians, and Jews under Polish rule prefer Polish rule to Russian rul

Post by Futurist » 12 Nov 2021 00:01

wm wrote:
11 Nov 2021 23:59
The Ukrainian peasants were incapable of that, they didn't have the means, didn't have the mental capacity to do that.
In this, there were very similar to the Orthodox Jews.
That's in contrast with the German Jews in the thirties who got the attention, the sympathy of the entire world despite being mostly inconvenient that killed.
"Mostly inconvenient that killed"? I thought that something like 64% of all German Jews from 1933 were able to survive the Holocaust due to them emigrating far enough in time?

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Re: Did the Lithuanians, Belarusians, Volhynian Ukrainians, and Jews under Polish rule prefer Polish rule to Russian rul

Post by wm » 12 Nov 2021 00:04

There was no Holocaust in the thirties.

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Re: Did the Lithuanians, Belarusians, Volhynian Ukrainians, and Jews under Polish rule prefer Polish rule to Russian rul

Post by Futurist » 12 Nov 2021 00:05

wm wrote:
12 Nov 2021 00:04
There was no Holocaust in the thirties.
Yes, but I don't get the logic of the last four words in your post above.

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Re: Did the Lithuanians, Belarusians, Volhynian Ukrainians, and Jews under Polish rule prefer Polish rule to Russian rul

Post by wm » 12 Nov 2021 00:14

Please, the German Jews lost their wealth (but not lives) at the end of 1938 (and even that isn't the entire true - the wealth was converted to bonds nominally administered by Jewish communities.)
Till the end of 1938 Jewish banks in Germany, supermarket chains were still, well, in Jewish hands.
Yes, they were forbidden to serve in the Wehrmacht, to marry German women, to vote.

Do you see the difference between them and the Ukrainian peasants now?

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Re: Did the Lithuanians, Belarusians, Volhynian Ukrainians, and Jews under Polish rule prefer Polish rule to Russian rul

Post by Futurist » 12 Nov 2021 00:37

wm wrote:
12 Nov 2021 00:14
Please, the German Jews lost their wealth (but not lives) at the end of 1938 (and even that isn't the entire true - the wealth was converted to bonds nominally administered by Jewish communities.)
Till the end of 1938 Jewish banks in Germany, supermarket chains were still, well, in Jewish hands.
Yes, they were forbidden to serve in the Wehrmacht, to marry German women, to vote.

Do you see the difference between them and the Ukrainian peasants now?
Ukrainian peasants were starving and were much poorer than German Jews were. What else?

And in Nazi Germany, no one could really vote since it was a one-party state. Voting there was absolutely meaningless.

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