Do you think Poland would've been more inclined to accept Russian aid in 1939 if Russia would've been non-Communist?

Discussions on all aspects of Poland during the Second Polish Republic and the Second World War. Hosted by Piotr Kapuscinski.
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Re: Do you think Poland would've been more inclined to accept Russian aid in 1939 if Russia would've been non-Communist?

Post by Futurist » 05 Jan 2021 02:08

FWIW, the only parts of Poland that IMHO Russian nationalists should lament over losing are Lemko Land and Bialystok:

https://www.unz.com/akarlin/belostok-oblast/

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Re: Do you think Poland would've been more inclined to accept Russian aid in 1939 if Russia would've been non-Communist?

Post by wm » 05 Jan 2021 08:55

In 1939 the goal of the proposed alliance was to prevent war not to save Poland. The thinking was that the British/French/Soviet deterrent would be sufficient for that.
Poland was irrelevant in that, it merely served as a tripwire. So generally Russian aid wasn't needed and there was nothing to accept.

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Re: Do you think Poland would've been more inclined to accept Russian aid in 1939 if Russia would've been non-Communist?

Post by Futurist » 05 Jan 2021 09:06

wm wrote:
05 Jan 2021 08:55
In 1939 the goal of the proposed alliance was to prevent war not to save Poland. The thinking was that the British/French/Soviet deterrent would be sufficient for that.
Poland was irrelevant in that, it merely served as a tripwire. So generally Russian aid wasn't needed and there was nothing to accept.
But what if war would not have been prevented? Then Poland would be at Russia's mercy, Communist or not!

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Re: Do you think Poland would've been more inclined to accept Russian aid in 1939 if Russia would've been non-Communist?

Post by wm » 05 Jan 2021 09:31

As it happened in reality? Well, tough luck.
It was one of those moments when only bad choices were available.

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Re: Do you think Poland would've been more inclined to accept Russian aid in 1939 if Russia would've been non-Communist?

Post by gebhk » 05 Jan 2021 18:24

In 1939 the goal of the proposed alliance was to prevent war not to save Poland.
Yerrrs. God forbid anyone would think me a cynic, but I rather think the proposers of the alliance weren't interested in preventing a war, just trying to prevent the war they got - on both sides. Just as Stalin was hoping Adi and the Franco-British would exhaust themselves kicking the snot out of each other, leaving the field open to him, so the French and British were hoping Adi would do the same with the Soviets instead. Needless to say no-one gave a sheep's withit for what happened to Poland.

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Re: Do you think Poland would've been more inclined to accept Russian aid in 1939 if Russia would've been non-Communist?

Post by Futurist » 05 Jan 2021 21:56

gebhk wrote:
05 Jan 2021 18:24
In 1939 the goal of the proposed alliance was to prevent war not to save Poland.
Yerrrs. God forbid anyone would think me a cynic, but I rather think the proposers of the alliance weren't interested in preventing a war, just trying to prevent the war they got - on both sides. Just as Stalin was hoping Adi and the Franco-British would exhaust themselves kicking the snot out of each other, leaving the field open to him, so the French and British were hoping Adi would do the same with the Soviets instead. Needless to say no-one gave a sheep's withit for what happened to Poland.
If Britain and France wanted the Nazis and Soviets to fight it out with each other, wouldn't it have been more prudent for them NOT to give guarantees to Poland in the first place, though?

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Re: Do you think Poland would've been more inclined to accept Russian aid in 1939 if Russia would've been non-Communist?

Post by wm » 05 Jan 2021 23:37

Export of communism through violent means was a state policy of the USSR. The idea to sent Hitler east was just a few guys speculating in their spare time - it wasn't even possible, nobody in France or in Britain would support that.

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Re: Do you think Poland would've been more inclined to accept Russian aid in 1939 if Russia would've been non-Communist?

Post by Futurist » 06 Jan 2021 01:23

wm wrote:
05 Jan 2021 23:37
Export of communism through violent means was a state policy of the USSR. The idea to sent Hitler east was just a few guys speculating in their spare time - it wasn't even possible, nobody in France or in Britain would support that.
What about if the Soviets would have conquered Poland back in 1920? Then would this have been more reasonable in Western eyes?

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Re: Do you think Poland would've been more inclined to accept Russian aid in 1939 if Russia would've been non-Communist?

Post by wm » 06 Jan 2021 02:48

Then Poland would stay conquered and life would go on.

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Re: Do you think Poland would've been more inclined to accept Russian aid in 1939 if Russia would've been non-Communist?

Post by Futurist » 06 Jan 2021 02:55

I meant in regards to British and French views in regards to a Nazi attack on the Soviet Union.

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Re: Do you think Poland would've been more inclined to accept Russian aid in 1939 if Russia would've been non-Communist?

Post by ljadw » 06 Jan 2021 09:31

The OP starts from the assumption that a non-communist Russia would offer aid to Poland if it was attacked by Germany .
But this is not only questionable and unlikely but excluded .

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Re: Do you think Poland would've been more inclined to accept Russian aid in 1939 if Russia would've been non-Communist?

Post by Futurist » 07 Jan 2021 00:13

ljadw wrote:
06 Jan 2021 09:31
The OP starts from the assumption that a non-communist Russia would offer aid to Poland if it was attacked by Germany .
But this is not only questionable and unlikely but excluded .
It could offer such aid to Poland if it itself will view Germany as a threat (as with Nazi Germany) or perhaps if the Anglo-French will offer it something really good in exchange for this.

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Re: Do you think Poland would've been more inclined to accept Russian aid in 1939 if Russia would've been non-Communist?

Post by ljadw » 07 Jan 2021 10:44

A non-communist Russia would have as goal,more than a communist Russia,to occupy as much of Poland as possible .
Russia benefited more than Prussia and Austria from the three partitions of Poland at the end of the 18th century .
If ,in the ATL, Poland would still exist as it existed before the partitions,Germany would have no reason to attack Poland,as there were no or few Germans in Poland before the partition .
When there was a non-communist Russia it collaborated with Prussia to partition Poland .The Tsar did not help Poland .
Stalin did not help Poland ,because it was an enemy ,and because his help could result in war with Germany and he expected, as everyone that if there was a war between Germany and France +Britain, these would defeat Germany without the help of the USSR .
Stalin's not unjustified opinion was that F+B would maybe fight for Poland, but would never fight for the USSR .
F +B had nothing to offer in exchange for Stalin's help .Nothing that Stalin wanted /nothing that Stalin could have without the consent of F+B .

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Re: Do you think Poland would've been more inclined to accept Russian aid in 1939 if Russia would've been non-Communist?

Post by wm » 07 Jan 2021 11:40

Although Hitler didn't attack Poland because of Germans, only because Poland was an obstacle to his plans.

Poland wasn't Stalin's enemy unless in the sense all capitalist countries were his and the USSR's enemies.

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Re: Do you think Poland would've been more inclined to accept Russian aid in 1939 if Russia would've been non-Communist?

Post by ljadw » 07 Jan 2021 18:50

But without the presence of a German minority in Poland, he could not claim that they were persecuted .
Poland was three times the enemy of Stalin :as a capitalist country, as a capitalist country that had invaded Russia and as a capitalist country that had annexed a part of Russia .

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