Do you think Poland would've been more inclined to accept Russian aid in 1939 if Russia would've been non-Communist?

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Do you think Poland would've been more inclined to accept Russian aid in 1939 if Russia would've been non-Communist?

Post by Futurist » 03 Jan 2021 00:19

Do you think that Poland would've been more inclined to accept Russian aid in 1939 if Russia would've been non-Communist during this time--for instance, had the Whites won the Russian Civil War in the late 1910s/early 1920s but Hitler and the Nazis would have still come to power in Germany later on and began threatening Poland? On the one hand, a non-Communist Russia would not have had the desire to spread Communist tyranny into Poland, which is a huge plus. On the other hand, though, Poles might have still feared that it would reintroduce Czarist-style Russian oppression into Poland or, at the very least, take away the Kresy (eastern Poland) from Poland if Poland would have still controlled the Kresy at that point in time--even if it would be generous enough to leave the rest of Poland alone after the war.

Anyway, though, what do you personally think about this?

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Re: Do you think Poland would've been more inclined to accept Russian aid in 1939 if Russia would've been non-Communist?

Post by wm » 03 Jan 2021 01:14

Stalin didn't offer any aid, he offered a Soviet Trojan horse.

In such a case France and Britain would abandon Poland and ally with Russia, basically throwing Poland under the Russian bus.

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Re: Do you think Poland would've been more inclined to accept Russian aid in 1939 if Russia would've been non-Communist?

Post by OpanaPointer » 03 Jan 2021 01:26

The Tsarist flag, IIRC, had a two headed eagle because they had to watch east and west. Alexander Nevsky explained that to the Chinese ambassador, in the eponymous movie.
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Re: Do you think Poland would've been more inclined to accept Russian aid in 1939 if Russia would've been non-Communist?

Post by Futurist » 03 Jan 2021 05:59

wm wrote:
03 Jan 2021 01:14
Stalin didn't offer any aid, he offered a Soviet Trojan horse.
Communization of Poland?
In such a case France and Britain would abandon Poland and ally with Russia, basically throwing Poland under the Russian bus.
Well, Russia might not want all of Poland in this scenario--only the Kresy, if it doesn't already have it, that is.

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Re: Do you think Poland would've been more inclined to accept Russian aid in 1939 if Russia would've been non-Communist?

Post by Futurist » 03 Jan 2021 05:59

OpanaPointer wrote:
03 Jan 2021 01:26
The Tsarist flag, IIRC, had a two headed eagle because they had to watch east and west. Alexander Nevsky explained that to the Chinese ambassador, in the eponymous movie.
West = Poland? Or Germany?
East = China?

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Re: Do you think Poland would've been more inclined to accept Russian aid in 1939 if Russia would've been non-Communist?

Post by OpanaPointer » 03 Jan 2021 15:11

Futurist wrote:
03 Jan 2021 05:59
OpanaPointer wrote:
03 Jan 2021 01:26
The Tsarist flag, IIRC, had a two headed eagle because they had to watch east and west. Alexander Nevsky explained that to the Chinese ambassador, in the eponymous movie.
West = Poland? Or Germany?
East = China?
Poland and/or Germany and China.
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Re: Do you think Poland would've been more inclined to accept Russian aid in 1939 if Russia would've been non-Communist?

Post by gebhk » 04 Jan 2021 01:03

Futurist

Don't see any reason why the Poles would have welcomed Russian imperialism whatever its flavour. As far as I can see the Whites were even less inclined to accept a free Poland than the Reds.

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Re: Do you think Poland would've been more inclined to accept Russian aid in 1939 if Russia would've been non-Communist?

Post by Futurist » 04 Jan 2021 22:24

gebhk wrote:
04 Jan 2021 01:03
Futurist

Don't see any reason why the Poles would have welcomed Russian imperialism whatever its flavour. As far as I can see the Whites were even less inclined to accept a free Poland than the Reds.
By the late 1930s, though, an independent Poland would likely become a reality for too long for anyone in Russia to successfully undo it--though I suppose that the Russians (even if they were non-Communist) could want to recover the Kresy (if they don't control it already) as well as possibly to install their own pliant puppet regime in Poland.

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Re: Do you think Poland would've been more inclined to accept Russian aid in 1939 if Russia would've been non-Communist?

Post by Futurist » 04 Jan 2021 22:24

OpanaPointer wrote:
03 Jan 2021 15:11
Futurist wrote:
03 Jan 2021 05:59
OpanaPointer wrote:
03 Jan 2021 01:26
The Tsarist flag, IIRC, had a two headed eagle because they had to watch east and west. Alexander Nevsky explained that to the Chinese ambassador, in the eponymous movie.
West = Poland? Or Germany?
East = China?
Poland and/or Germany and China.
Thanks!

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Re: Do you think Poland would've been more inclined to accept Russian aid in 1939 if Russia would've been non-Communist?

Post by gebhk » 04 Jan 2021 22:44

By the late 1930s, though, an independent Poland would likely become a reality for too long for anyone in Russia to successfully undo it--though I suppose that the Russians (even if they were non-Communist) could want to recover the Kresy (if they don't control it already) as well as possibly to install their own pliant puppet regime in Poland.
Not sure that I buy that. The Germans certainly did not accept that 'their' part of Poland should go, 30s or no. While inevitably émigré politics suffer form arrested political development, nevertheless I never met a White Russian who believed Russia should let go of 'their' part of Poland. And we are talking 60s and 70s.

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Re: Do you think Poland would've been more inclined to accept Russian aid in 1939 if Russia would've been non-Communist?

Post by OpanaPointer » 04 Jan 2021 23:38

Futurist wrote:
04 Jan 2021 22:24
OpanaPointer wrote:
03 Jan 2021 15:11
Futurist wrote:
03 Jan 2021 05:59
OpanaPointer wrote:
03 Jan 2021 01:26
The Tsarist flag, IIRC, had a two headed eagle because they had to watch east and west. Alexander Nevsky explained that to the Chinese ambassador, in the eponymous movie.
West = Poland? Or Germany?
East = China?
Poland and/or Germany and China.
Thanks!
The Poles of the Middle Ages gave the Cossacks a hard time, or so I'm told. "Taras Bulba", anyone? Anything close to historical?
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hyperwarHyperwar
World War II Resources

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Re: Do you think Poland would've been more inclined to accept Russian aid in 1939 if Russia would've been non-Communist?

Post by Futurist » 05 Jan 2021 00:44

OpanaPointer wrote:
04 Jan 2021 23:38
Futurist wrote:
04 Jan 2021 22:24
OpanaPointer wrote:
03 Jan 2021 15:11
Futurist wrote:
03 Jan 2021 05:59
OpanaPointer wrote:
03 Jan 2021 01:26
The Tsarist flag, IIRC, had a two headed eagle because they had to watch east and west. Alexander Nevsky explained that to the Chinese ambassador, in the eponymous movie.
West = Poland? Or Germany?
East = China?
Poland and/or Germany and China.
Thanks!
The Poles of the Middle Ages gave the Cossacks a hard time, or so I'm told. "Taras Bulba", anyone? Anything close to historical?
Well, the Polonkadonks did manage to defeat the Soviets in a war in 1919-1921, so ...

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Re: Do you think Poland would've been more inclined to accept Russian aid in 1939 if Russia would've been non-Communist?

Post by Futurist » 05 Jan 2021 00:44

gebhk wrote:
04 Jan 2021 22:44
By the late 1930s, though, an independent Poland would likely become a reality for too long for anyone in Russia to successfully undo it--though I suppose that the Russians (even if they were non-Communist) could want to recover the Kresy (if they don't control it already) as well as possibly to install their own pliant puppet regime in Poland.
Not sure that I buy that. The Germans certainly did not accept that 'their' part of Poland should go, 30s or no. While inevitably émigré politics suffer form arrested political development, nevertheless I never met a White Russian who believed Russia should let go of 'their' part of Poland. And we are talking 60s and 70s.
Was "their part" of Poland referring to the Kresy or to Polish territories west of the Kresy?

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Re: Do you think Poland would've been more inclined to accept Russian aid in 1939 if Russia would've been non-Communist?

Post by gebhk » 05 Jan 2021 01:14

Everything they had prior to WW1

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Re: Do you think Poland would've been more inclined to accept Russian aid in 1939 if Russia would've been non-Communist?

Post by Futurist » 05 Jan 2021 02:05

Strange for Russians to lament the loss of extremely heavily Polonkadonk areas, if you ask me!

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