Did Volhynian Czechs fare better in Poland or in the pre-Stalin Soviet Union?

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Re: Did Volhynian Czechs fare better in Poland or in the pre-Stalin Soviet Union?

Post by Futurist » 17 Dec 2020 23:37

wm wrote:
17 Dec 2020 18:20
Here, with the border in the middle:
czesi_na_wolyniu.jpg

The Czech agricultural colonies were actually a Czarist government idea, which included reduced land prices, tax abatements, exemption from military service.
By 1900 up to 100,000 Jews were settled in such colonies in Russia too.
Where were the Jewish agricultural colonies in Tsarist Russia?

Also, is there any particular reason that Tsarist Russia targeted Czechs for immigration and not other groups such as Frenchmen, Englishmen, Italians, Spaniards, et cetera?

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Re: Did Volhynian Czechs fare better in Poland or in the pre-Stalin Soviet Union?

Post by Futurist » 18 Dec 2020 00:30

wm wrote:
17 Dec 2020 18:20
Here, with the border in the middle:
czesi_na_wolyniu.jpg

The Czech agricultural colonies were actually a Czarist government idea, which included reduced land prices, tax abatements, exemption from military service.
By 1900 up to 100,000 Jews were settled in such colonies in Russia too.
BTW, where's that map from, wm?

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Re: Did Volhynian Czechs fare better in Poland or in the pre-Stalin Soviet Union?

Post by wm » 18 Dec 2020 00:56

It's from a book by Zbigniew Tobjański Czesi w Polsce [1994]. I was sure I included that but I was wrong.

The colonies were in Kherson Governorate, Podolia Governorate, New Russia, Western Krai, Starozakrevsky Maidan. I've told you to read Solzhenitsyn you didn't listen. :)

The reason was that the Czechs, Jews, Germans lived no that far away so they could afford to relocate and begin a new life.

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Re: Did Volhynian Czechs fare better in Poland or in the pre-Stalin Soviet Union?

Post by Futurist » 18 Dec 2020 02:29

wm wrote:
18 Dec 2020 00:56
It's from a book by Zbigniew Tobjański Czesi w Polsce [1994]. I was sure I included that but I was wrong.

The colonies were in Kherson Governorate, Podolia Governorate, New Russia, Western Krai, Starozakrevsky Maidan. I've told you to read Solzhenitsyn you didn't listen. :)

The reason was that the Czechs, Jews, Germans lived no that far away so they could afford to relocate and begin a new life.
So, it's all about distance? If so, why didn't a lot of Hungarians and Romanians relocate to Russia?

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Re: Did Volhynian Czechs fare better in Poland or in the pre-Stalin Soviet Union?

Post by Futurist » 18 Dec 2020 02:38

BTW, did you scan this image or is this specific book available online for free? BTW, it's pretty interesting and pretty cool that Poland got the lion's share of the Volhynian Czech settlements in the interwar era. :)

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Re: Did Volhynian Czechs fare better in Poland or in the pre-Stalin Soviet Union?

Post by wm » 20 Dec 2020 00:48

The settlement efforts lasted almost a hundred years, there was no single reason the settlers were chosen. The common reason seems to be a desire to modernize Russian agriculture.
The settlers had to be quite determined, in need, to start a new life. Hungarians I suppose had enough opportunities in their own empire.

I don't have the book, it's just a scan from it found on the Internet.

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Re: Did Volhynian Czechs fare better in Poland or in the pre-Stalin Soviet Union?

Post by gebhk » 20 Dec 2020 13:31

The common reason seems to be a desire to modernize Russian agriculture.
Very much so. Similarly and for the same reasons, German farmers were encouraged to settle in the western parts of Poland with generous subsidies and tax breaks - as we discussed in the Lodz thread.

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Re: Did Volhynian Czechs fare better in Poland or in the pre-Stalin Soviet Union?

Post by Futurist » 21 Dec 2020 00:08

wm wrote:
20 Dec 2020 00:48
The settlement efforts lasted almost a hundred years, there was no single reason the settlers were chosen. The common reason seems to be a desire to modernize Russian agriculture.
The settlers had to be quite determined, in need, to start a new life. Hungarians I suppose had enough opportunities in their own empire.

I don't have the book, it's just a scan from it found on the Internet.
What about South Slavs, Slovaks, and Romanians?

Also, can you please show me where exactly you found this book, wm?

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Re: Did Volhynian Czechs fare better in Poland or in the pre-Stalin Soviet Union?

Post by Futurist » 21 Dec 2020 00:08

gebhk wrote:
20 Dec 2020 13:31
The common reason seems to be a desire to modernize Russian agriculture.
Very much so. Similarly and for the same reasons, German farmers were encouraged to settle in the western parts of Poland with generous subsidies and tax breaks - as we discussed in the Lodz thread.
What made western Poland more special than eastern Poland other than its proximity to Germany?

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Re: Did Volhynian Czechs fare better in Poland or in the pre-Stalin Soviet Union?

Post by gebhk » 21 Dec 2020 00:47

I imagine nothing other than the proximity of Germany. However, historically, there was German emigration to many parts (and levels) of the Russian Empire, but rather than me you would need someone who actually knows what they are talking about if you want to get into that :lol: .

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Re: Did Volhynian Czechs fare better in Poland or in the pre-Stalin Soviet Union?

Post by Biber » 21 Dec 2020 01:20

Volks Deutsch in Ukraine? (Elswhere?) Wolgadeutsche etc...

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Re: Did Volhynian Czechs fare better in Poland or in the pre-Stalin Soviet Union?

Post by Futurist » 21 Dec 2020 02:20

gebhk wrote:
21 Dec 2020 00:47
I imagine nothing other than the proximity of Germany. However, historically, there was German emigration to many parts (and levels) of the Russian Empire, but rather than me you would need someone who actually knows what they are talking about if you want to get into that :lol: .
Such as Jonathan Otto Pohl?

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Re: Did Volhynian Czechs fare better in Poland or in the pre-Stalin Soviet Union?

Post by gebhk » 21 Dec 2020 11:36

Alas, I know so little about the subject, I wouldn't even know who to suggest as a reliable source. Given the nature of the Soviet Union, its racist streak and the prevalence of its modern-day apologists, it will be difficult to find an analysis that is not controversial, I expect.

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Re: Did Volhynian Czechs fare better in Poland or in the pre-Stalin Soviet Union?

Post by Futurist » 21 Dec 2020 21:23

Pohl appears to be a strong critic of the Soviet Union, for what it's worth.

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Re: Did Volhynian Czechs fare better in Poland or in the pre-Stalin Soviet Union?

Post by gebhk » 21 Dec 2020 21:58

So I believe. The problem I suspect is that the monstrous and relatively recent crimes of the Soviet Union make a dispassionate assessment of the history of the Russian/Soviet/Russian empire very difficult - much as no doubt a good modern history of the Jews in Germany is not going to be easy for a long time yet, even though the vast majority of it pre-dates the Nazis.

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