How much was the overpopulation problem in Poland alleviated by the migration of Poles to the Recovered Territories?

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Re: How much was the overpopulation problem in Poland alleviated by the migration of Poles to the Recovered Territories?

Post by Futurist » 02 Oct 2020 18:15

gebhk wrote:
02 Oct 2020 13:10
it's worth noting that Germany's eastern territories were relatively sparsely populated, to my knowledge. However, I don't know if they could actually support and sustain a large population.
Hi Futurist.

As I understand it, the scenario in the Eastern provinces was similar to that in Poland ie farming wasn't particularly lucrative. Consequently there was a trend for the workforce to up sticks and move west where they could find better-paid employment in industry and, hopefully, a better quality of life. As a result the eastern territories became more sparsely populated over time. Of course, in Poland there was not that much industry to migrate to, so a move to work in industry, in most cases, involved the more drastic step of emigration to another country.
Yep, Germany experienced the Ostflucht in the 19th and early 20th centuries. That said, though, couldn't additional industry have been built in eastern Germany and eastern Poland?

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Re: How much was the overpopulation problem in Poland alleviated by the migration of Poles to the Recovered Territories?

Post by gebhk » 02 Oct 2020 19:09

Hi Futurist

I suspect you have to ask yourself why the existing industry was, where it was. The answer is, probably, because that is where the most essential and costliest to transport raw materials/fuel (ie iron ore, coal etc) were available at the lowest cost. Over time, this creates an infrastructure (including the human infrastructure - ie trained/experienced workers) and supply of sub-components which makes it easier, quicker and cheaper to establish new industries in an existing industrial area than to start from scratch in the 'wilds'. The only attractions of virgin territories is cheaper land (when the existing industrial centres become overcrowded and consequently land prices rise) and long-term tax incentives.

That being said, Poland hatched a plan and started implementation of the COP (Centralny Okreg Przemyslowy - central industrial region). While its primary purpose was strategic - to move the most essential production of war materials as far away from the borders as possible in bomber-protected factories - it also co-incidentally addressed unemployment issues in a severely deprived area.

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Re: How much was the overpopulation problem in Poland alleviated by the migration of Poles to the Recovered Territories?

Post by gebhk » 02 Oct 2020 20:23

Hi WM
It looks too good to be true. And it changed nothing because the entire industry, including fuels, was heavily taxed.
It is what the law says unless I am reading things incorrectly. Clearly it changed something because vehicle ownership and registration started rising again quite significantly.

I don't think anyone suggests fuel taxes weren't excessive, even in 1939; so I am not sure what the point you are making is? However it is a fact that the PFD element of the taxes on fuel fell in the second half of the 30s.

Incidentally, the figure of 2670 you have to take with a pinch of salt in my opinion. For one thing it includes things which were nice but not essential - for example hiring a garage (350 zl) and insurance (480 zl). For another it assumes an annual mileage of 12K. Given that the statistical European of 2013 drove his car slightly less than that distance, I doubt that it is representative.

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Re: How much was the overpopulation problem in Poland alleviated by the migration of Poles to the Recovered Territories?

Post by Futurist » 02 Oct 2020 22:16

gebhk wrote:
02 Oct 2020 19:09
Hi Futurist

I suspect you have to ask yourself why the existing industry was, where it was. The answer is, probably, because that is where the most essential and costliest to transport raw materials/fuel (ie iron ore, coal etc) were available at the lowest cost. Over time, this creates an infrastructure (including the human infrastructure - ie trained/experienced workers) and supply of sub-components which makes it easier, quicker and cheaper to establish new industries in an existing industrial area than to start from scratch in the 'wilds'. The only attractions of virgin territories is cheaper land (when the existing industrial centres become overcrowded and consequently land prices rise) and long-term tax incentives.

That being said, Poland hatched a plan and started implementation of the COP (Centralny Okreg Przemyslowy - central industrial region). While its primary purpose was strategic - to move the most essential production of war materials as far away from the borders as possible in bomber-protected factories - it also co-incidentally addressed unemployment issues in a severely deprived area.
Where exactly in central Poland was the COP located?

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Re: How much was the overpopulation problem in Poland alleviated by the migration of Poles to the Recovered Territories?

Post by wm » 03 Oct 2020 20:13

COP.png
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Re: How much was the overpopulation problem in Poland alleviated by the migration of Poles to the Recovered Territories?

Post by Futurist » 03 Oct 2020 22:16

Thanks, wm! So, it was located west of the Kresy.

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Re: How much was the overpopulation problem in Poland alleviated by the migration of Poles to the Recovered Territories?

Post by wm » 03 Oct 2020 23:24

gebhk wrote:
02 Oct 2020 20:23
Incidentally, the figure of 2670 you have to take with a pinch of salt in my opinion. For one thing it includes things which were nice but not essential - for example hiring a garage (350 zl) and insurance (480 zl). For another it assumes an annual mileage of 12K. Given that the statistical European of 2013 drove his car slightly less than that distance, I doubt that it is representative.
A garage was needed because cars weren't especially weather-resistant and not very safe on the street. For the same reason, insurance was essential if the car departed into the night on its own.

I've read about a man who "decarbonized" his car by removing its engine and harnessing a horse to it - he couldn't afford the bills anymore. And that was in Kraków in 1939.

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Re: How much was the overpopulation problem in Poland alleviated by the migration of Poles to the Recovered Territories?

Post by Futurist » 04 Oct 2020 00:27

wm wrote:
03 Oct 2020 23:24
gebhk wrote:
02 Oct 2020 20:23
Incidentally, the figure of 2670 you have to take with a pinch of salt in my opinion. For one thing it includes things which were nice but not essential - for example hiring a garage (350 zl) and insurance (480 zl). For another it assumes an annual mileage of 12K. Given that the statistical European of 2013 drove his car slightly less than that distance, I doubt that it is representative.
A garage was needed because cars weren't especially weather-resistant and not very safe on the street. For the same reason, insurance was essential if the car departed into the night on its own.

I've read about a man who "decarbonized" his car by removing its engine and harnessing a horse to it - he couldn't afford the bills anymore. And that was in Kraków in 1939.
Did cars become much more widespread in Communist Poland?

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Re: How much was the overpopulation problem in Poland alleviated by the migration of Poles to the Recovered Territories?

Post by wm » 04 Oct 2020 09:43

samochody-osobowe-w-polsce-od-1950-roku.png
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Re: How much was the overpopulation problem in Poland alleviated by the migration of Poles to the Recovered Territories?

Post by gebhk » 04 Oct 2020 10:03

Thanks WM for then diagram.
A garage was needed because cars weren't especially weather-resistant and not very safe on the street. For the same reason, insurance was essential if the car departed into the night on its own.
As I said nice, but no essential. Hiring a garage at vast expense is not the only option for putting a car off the street and under cover. It would probably have been cheaper to hire a night watchman to look after your motor when you weren't driving than to pay the highest insurance for security - the main reason folk paid insurance was because of the appalling state of the roads which made damage common. The thing is that this figure is a collection of the highest costs that could be found - not the average - to make a point. In the same way, I am sure you could collect a similar collection of the highest possible expenses for a modern car and come up with a figure that would make your wallet squeal.

Futurist - yes indeed it was away from the Kresy - that was the point: to move industry away from the areas of most immediate threat from invasion.

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Re: How much was the overpopulation problem in Poland alleviated by the migration of Poles to the Recovered Territories?

Post by Futurist » 10 Oct 2020 04:50

@gebhk: Question: Was it easier for Poland to avoid an uneven population distribution in the pre-WWI years and decades since back then Poland was a part of the Russian Empire and thus Poles who wanted to seek industrial jobs didn't necessarily have to seek these jobs in Poland but could instead travel to other parts of Russia to seek these jobs?

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Re: How much was the overpopulation problem in Poland alleviated by the migration of Poles to the Recovered Territories?

Post by gebhk » 10 Oct 2020 09:48

The short amswer is that, alas I don't know.

The longer one is that (1) I suspect there were similar problems empire-wide to the regional ones - it clearly is not a coincidence that the parts of interbellum Poland inherited from Russia were uniformly more backward than those inherited from Prussia. Therefore I doubt that there were many opportunities available further afield that had not been snapped up by people much more local to them. (2) This presupposes that the authorities would approve such movement - although I am not certain how this worked in practice, I am pretty sure that you couldn't just up sticks and move where you pleased under the Tsar.....

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Re: How much was the overpopulation problem in Poland alleviated by the migration of Poles to the Recovered Territories?

Post by Futurist » 25 Oct 2020 05:24

Do you believe that in the early 20th century the US and Western Europe--even Imperial Germany and Austria-Hungary--had much more freedom of movement than Tsarist Russia had? I mean in general--not only for certain groups such as the Jews.

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Re: How much was the overpopulation problem in Poland alleviated by the migration of Poles to the Recovered Territories?

Post by gebhk » 25 Oct 2020 12:40

Alas, well outside my knowledge zone! I suspect you won't be able to get away from the class thing though, because in general that determined how much freedom of movement or control over your own life you had - in any country.

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Re: How much was the overpopulation problem in Poland alleviated by the migration of Poles to the Recovered Territories?

Post by Futurist » 25 Oct 2020 20:19

I thought that even peasants/poor people were sometimes capable of moving long distances--for instance, if there was free land available far away?

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