Was there any realistic way for Poland to have a monarchy after WWI if the Entente/Allies win WWI?

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Re: Was there any realistic way for Poland to have a monarchy after WWI if the Entente/Allies win WWI?

Post by Futurist » 23 Jun 2020 00:03

Pilsudski was far-left?

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Re: Was there any realistic way for Poland to have a monarchy after WWI if the Entente/Allies win WWI?

Post by wm » 23 Jun 2020 00:51

Of course, he and the Polish socialists closely cooperated with the German and Russian socialists (many of them became communists later). By modern standards, his Revolutionary Faction and the Combat Organization (of the Polish Socialist Party) were terrorist organizations.

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Re: Was there any realistic way for Poland to have a monarchy after WWI if the Entente/Allies win WWI?

Post by Futurist » 23 Jun 2020 00:59

Very interesting! Did he become more right-wing later on?

BTW, I suspect that a restored French Orleanist monarchy in the early 1870s and beyond would have powers comparable to the British monarchs during the same time period.

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Re: Was there any realistic way for Poland to have a monarchy after WWI if the Entente/Allies win WWI?

Post by henryk » 23 Jun 2020 20:06

wm wrote:
22 Jun 2020 23:50
Piłsudski's brother together with Lenin's brother took part in a plot to assassinate Alexander III of Russia in 1887. So it's obvious such far-left folks liked their kings dead.
Bronisław Piotr Piłsudski. His brother Józef, the Hero of Poland also participated. Being a Socialist is not far-left. In 2008, a Polish bank note and coin were issued for Bronisław.

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Re: Was there any realistic way for Poland to have a monarchy after WWI if the Entente/Allies win WWI?

Post by wm » 24 Jun 2020 18:57

At that time the main difference between socialists and communists was the level of force and coercion they were ready to use to gain and maintain power.

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Re: Was there any realistic way for Poland to have a monarchy after WWI if the Entente/Allies win WWI?

Post by Futurist » 24 Jun 2020 20:05

wm wrote:
24 Jun 2020 18:57
At that time the main difference between socialists and communists was the level of force and coercion they were ready to use to gain and maintain power.
So, the socialists were more pro-democracy?

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Re: Was there any realistic way for Poland to have a monarchy after WWI if the Entente/Allies win WWI?

Post by wm » 24 Jun 2020 22:00

They were naively pro-democracy, they believed that properly "educated" people would see the light and vote for them and as they desired.
Basically they wanted something in the vein of the Eastern Bloc states.

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Re: Was there any realistic way for Poland to have a monarchy after WWI if the Entente/Allies win WWI?

Post by Futurist » 24 Jun 2020 22:09

wm wrote:
24 Jun 2020 22:00
They were naively pro-democracy, they believed that properly "educated" people would see the light and vote for them and as they desired.
Basically they wanted something in the vein of the Eastern Bloc states.
But with private property, right?

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Re: Was there any realistic way for Poland to have a monarchy after WWI if the Entente/Allies win WWI?

Post by wm » 25 Jun 2020 21:24

This is what they wrote in 1920. In the 19th century it worse.
Now, in order to obtain a production directed towards social ends, society must control production absolutely, that is to say "the ownership and control of the industries and services essential for the satisfaction of the people's needs" should pass from the capitalists to the community.

Nationalization of the great public services, such as transport, mines, the production of electricity and gas, is admitted at the present time even by a number of people who cannot exactly be called socialists. The expropriation by the community of other industries has the almost unanimous support of the socialist world.

The general rule that all the means of production should pass to the community.

The ownership of the soil should be national, whatever may be the system by which agricultural production is secured.

[As] to artisans working on their own account and to independent intellectual workers [...] there is our necessary condition, that production should be carried on without the employment of the labour of others.

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Re: Was there any realistic way for Poland to have a monarchy after WWI if the Entente/Allies win WWI?

Post by Futurist » 25 Jun 2020 21:27

I'm trying to figure out if this was fluff or if they were actually serious with this. What did the German SPD have to say about all of this back then? After all, when Germany was governed by the SPD, they certainly allowed private property, did they not?

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Re: Was there any realistic way for Poland to have a monarchy after WWI if the Entente/Allies win WWI?

Post by Futurist » 05 Jul 2020 01:26

I would personally support right-wingers (other than Nazis) over Communists but would also support moderate socialists (such as the German SPD) over right-wingers.

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Re: Was there any realistic way for Poland to have a monarchy after WWI if the Entente/Allies win WWI?

Post by gebhk » 05 Jul 2020 10:57

Pilsudski was far-left?
I don't think these sorts of lables are particularly useful. After all, at the time anyone who thought that the Tsar did not have the divine right to do what he damn well pleased would have been considered by the powers that be a raving red and a dangerous heretic to boot. In Pilsudski's case, he probably had little interest in such matters, he was very strongly fixated on Polish national independence and would do whatever brought him closer to that objective. This included membership of a socialist organisation because he believed only mass involvement of the working classes could assure national success. Adolf Nowaczynski's "Pilsudski got off the party bus at the Independence stop" seems particularly apt (this quotable quote is often attributed incorrectly and in slightly altered form to Pilsudski himself).

When shortly after independence his former colleagues from the PPS met with him in the hopes of establishing a socialist government, Pilsudski was brutal in his rejection of a notion of a government other than one of national union, which accommodated everyone, not just the socialists. This is associated with another quote, this time almost certainly his: "you're only fit to take chicken out for a piss and not for making politics"

In short, once independence had been achieved, he was more interested in national unity than party politics (albeit, it probably isn't too unfair to say that his view of national unity was the nation agreeing with him.....)

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Re: Was there any realistic way for Poland to have a monarchy after WWI if the Entente/Allies win WWI?

Post by wm » 07 Jul 2020 20:10

Futurist wrote:
25 Jun 2020 21:27
I'm trying to figure out if this was fluff or if they were actually serious with this. What did the German SPD have to say about all of this back then? After all, when Germany was governed by the SPD, they certainly allowed private property, did they not?
The SPD never had the required majority to implement their cherished ideas, postwar they moved towards the political center.

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Re: Was there any realistic way for Poland to have a monarchy after WWI if the Entente/Allies win WWI?

Post by Futurist » 07 Jul 2020 22:26

wm wrote:
07 Jul 2020 20:10
Futurist wrote:
25 Jun 2020 21:27
I'm trying to figure out if this was fluff or if they were actually serious with this. What did the German SPD have to say about all of this back then? After all, when Germany was governed by the SPD, they certainly allowed private property, did they not?
The SPD never had the required majority to implement their cherished ideas, postwar they moved towards the political center.
What exactly were their cherished ideas, though?

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Re: Was there any realistic way for Poland to have a monarchy after WWI if the Entente/Allies win WWI?

Post by wm » 08 Jul 2020 15:17

All the above, it was from The Congress of the Labour and Socialist International, 1920, and the SPD was one of the main forces behind it.
For example, mentioned there Messrs. Otto Wels was the Chairman of the SPD from 1919 till 1939.

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