If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage?

Discussions on all aspects of Poland during the Second Polish Republic and the Second World War. Hosted by Piotr Kapuscinski.
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Piotr Kapuscinski
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Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 01 Jun 2022 17:26

Futurist, yes I think the rate of intermarriage would be increasing.

There are still attempts to revive the Polish-Jewish community:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psWarhwc4eY

There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

gebhk
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Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by gebhk » 02 Jun 2022 05:01

Hi George
What’s so difficult to understand?
If you read your last sentence carefully I am sure you will see :).
Polish Jews rarely had anything to do with non-Jewish Poles. Relationships and marriages were a rare thing.
Were they? I mean do you have statistical data to support this? And if so, how reliable is it? It does come back to the wretched question of 'what is a Jew?' - or a Pole for that matter. And at a time before easy DNA tests, I would be willing to bet dollars to monkey-nuts that there were large numbers of people who had no idea they had some or even a lot of Jewish or Polish ancestry. Not that it is anything necessarily to do with Jewishness, my mum had thalassaemia minor, a congenital disorder endemic in the mediterranean basin and other warm malarial hotspots. Because of her assumed Polish ancestry the causes of her chronic anaemia remained undiagnosed until she was in her 60s, when she was seen by a locum Indian doctor for something unrelated. Initially we theorised that one of grandma's ancestors had come back from a 'grand tour' of the classical world or had an Italian tutor and got more than just a classical education. Turns out it came down grandad's line, a far less patrician one, making the question of how the relevant (probably Mediterranean) genes got inserted into the family tree even more mysterious. The point being, that more often than not, you can't tell squat for certain about ancestry without digging up said ancestors and testing their DNA.

I can only speak for my own experience, however, we had a number of Jewish and part-Jewish family friends who married and/or had relationships with non-Jews.
Jews, like many other groups with religion as part of their everyday life, tend to only stick to their ‘own’.
Can't help thinking you are succumbing to colourful stereotypes. Is there evidence of higher religiosity among the Jewish section of the population (even if we ignore the above)? And more importantly - even if there is, what is the evidence that in Poland this would not have changed as it did pretty much everywhere else in the world? We certainly did have a Jewish friend who had religion as (a big!) part of his everyday life - he was a Catholic priest who became a monk and rose to become abbot of his monastery!

Alas, again, I can only rely on my own experience as a first generation Pole living in the UK. Despite being brought up in two communities ie an emigree Catholic Polish one (Catholic parish, Polish boy scouts, Polish Saturday school) as well as the wider UK one (school, the world at large). Of my peers, even though their parents spoke Polish at home, few spoke Polish well and we practically invariably spoke Polish to our elders but spoke English amongst ourselves. TV was the great leveller and those few of my peers who spoke Polish well were those, like myself, who were brought up without a goggle-box at home. Few of us remained within the local Polish community once they moved out into the wider world of higher education and work - ironically, my bet is that it was precisely becuase that community was primarily a religious one, it had little to offer the majority in an increasingly secular world. And we were probably a small minority - most 1st gen Poles were born to either mixed marriages or despite having both Polish parents, were simply brought up as Britons and had no involvement in the Polish emigree community whatsoever.

I doubt that such universal processes (increasing acces, increased mobility) would not have affected the Jewish communities of Poland, when elsewhere they patently affected and continue to affect at an ever-increasing rate, communities which are visibly physically distinct let alone, like Polish Jews, merely culturally so.

LAstry2
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Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by LAstry2 » 21 Aug 2022 16:14

Postscript on message 39.....Would Like to share the following On Jewish Views on importance of faith and Marriage..

Question Summary:

Date: 08/18/2022
Incident ID: 5683548
Query on Judism and religious Faith:

Question:
Years ago I read a saying from Chinses philisopher Confucious-what asked what 3 essentials were he said-suffiecent troops; food and faith. When asked what he would give up first he said troops; and what he would give up second he said food because passing away has been mans fate but a people without faith cannot survive...now is there a simiar saying in judisam..that in order for the Jewish people to survice as People of the Book..they must not only known but embrace the Iron Yoke of the Torah?


08/19/2022

ב"ה

Hi ,

Thank you for sharing this interesting anecdote about Confucious. The answer to your question is yes! - Judaism most certainly does have such a quote.

We know that there are a total of 613 enduring commandments for all generations found in the Torah. There is a famous passage in the Talmud where various attempts are made to 'reduce' the total into either 11, 6, 3, 2 or 1 core ideas that truly capture and hold everything else. The passage ends by quoting the prophet Chavakuk, saying that he was able to have all of the Torah stand on just 1 principle, "But the righteous person shall live by his faith".

The passage is found in Tractate Makkot 24a..
https://www.chabad.org/5458917

Hope this is helpful.

All the best,

Mendel Fogelman
Chabad.org


Question Summary:

Date: 08/19/2022
Incident ID: 5683797
Proper Jewish marriage and courting :

Question:
Is the Torah give examples of what is and is not permitted in Jewish Courting/Marraige practices?
#1) Isaac properly courting his cousin Rebecca before marriage{good example}
#2 Scheam rape-marriage of Dinah (bad example)
#3) Samson keep marrying non-Jewish Philistine women- as he was lead astry by his lustful eyes for which he was blinded? {Bad example)
#4) that a Jewish soldier should not take a non-jewish captive woman as a wife because the son would rebel against his father as happens to King David and Absalom?[bad example]

LAstry2
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Posts: 175
Joined: 02 May 2022 12:14
Location: USA

Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by LAstry2 » 23 Aug 2022 20:02

LAstry2 wrote:
21 Aug 2022 16:14
Postscript on message 39.....Would Like to share the following On Jewish Views on importance of faith and Marriage..

Question Summary:

Date: 08/18/2022
Incident ID: 5683548
Query on Judism and religious Faith:

Question:
Years ago I read a saying from Chinses philisopher Confucious-what asked what 3 essentials were he said-suffiecent troops; food and faith. When asked what he would give up first he said troops; and what he would give up second he said food because passing away has been mans fate but a people without faith cannot survive...now is there a simiar saying in judisam..that in order for the Jewish people to survice as People of the Book..they must not only known but embrace the Iron Yoke of the Torah?


08/19/2022

ב"ה

Hi ,

Thank you for sharing this interesting anecdote about Confucious. The answer to your question is yes! - Judaism most certainly does have such a quote.

We know that there are a total of 613 enduring commandments for all generations found in the Torah. There is a famous passage in the Talmud where various attempts are made to 'reduce' the total into either 11, 6, 3, 2 or 1 core ideas that truly capture and hold everything else. The passage ends by quoting the prophet Chavakuk, saying that he was able to have all of the Torah stand on just 1 principle, "But the righteous person shall live by his faith".

The passage is found in Tractate Makkot 24a..
https://www.chabad.org/5458917

Hope this is helpful.

All the best,

Mendel Fogelman
Chabad.org


Question Summary:

Date: 08/19/2022
Incident ID: 5683797
Proper Jewish marriage and courting :

Question:
Is the Torah give examples of what is and is not permitted in Jewish Courting/Marraige practices?
#1) Isaac properly courting his cousin Rebecca before marriage{good example}
#2 Scheam rape-marriage of Dinah (bad example)
#3) Samson keep marrying non-Jewish Philistine women- as he was lead astry by his lustful eyes for which he was blinded? {Bad example)
#4) that a Jewish soldier should not take a non-jewish captive woman as a wife because the son would rebel against his father as happens to King David and Absalom?[bad example]
08/22/2022 received a reply
Ref No 5683797
B"H

Hi ,

Yes, there re definitely good examples and suggestions. You're on the right track.

All the best,

Rabbi Eliezer Zalmanov
for Chabad.org

gebhk
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Posts: 2095
Joined: 25 Feb 2013 20:23

Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by gebhk » 24 Aug 2022 09:06

Hi LAstry

Not sure how the above impacts the question of the thread. Can you expand?

LAstry2
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Posts: 175
Joined: 02 May 2022 12:14
Location: USA

Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by LAstry2 » 24 Aug 2022 13:01

Hada query on Jewish views on faith and marriage and responces

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