If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage?

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wm
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Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by wm » 17 Jul 2020 20:12

I think that was survivable, people quickly forget about it, and anyway, such behavior was expected, but the NKVD prisoner massacres really did it.
For that, someone had to pay, innocent or not. That's why the Lviv pogroms happened and maybe Jedwabne.

Especially that:
In contrast, I have the impression that the intelligentsia, the wealthiest Jews and those of the highest level of culture [with, of course, certain exceptions and not counting the pretenders], rather think of Poland often with a certain fondness and would happily greet a change in the present situation [leadingfhead to] the independence of Poland.
Of course, a certain calculation of self-interest is involved in this. At present they too are experiencing many hardships, if not collective liquidation - their houses are being confiscated, and their stores, businesses, and factories are being taken away under the muse of so-called "socialization" and turned into something like cooperatives [in which the participation of the state and the performance of services on behalf of the state occupy an extraordinarily large portion]. This makes it impossible for them to earn a living, even often to maintain a subsistence level. On the other hand there prevails among them in general the fairly deeply-rooted conviction that the future Poland will be a democratic state which will owe much to, among others, international Jewry - in part it will be dependent upon it - and so the Jews will not be persecuted.

Finally, there is no doubt that their Polish patriotism also plays a certain role, though it is difficult to say to what extent.
Jan Karski, the same source

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Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by Futurist » 17 Jul 2020 20:20

"leadingfhead"?

Anyway, it was rather difficult to undo the Soviet annexation of eastern Poland after it occurred. Had France not fallen in 1940, western Poland could have eventually acquired its independence but not eastern Poland.

As for the Lviv pogroms, just how much Polish participation was there in them? I know that the Jedwabne pogrom was a Polish affair, unfortunately. :(

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Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by wm » 17 Jul 2020 21:14

Please, during such apocalyptic evens nobody is going to conduct popularity pools. But the victims were mostly Ukrainians so mostly Ukrainians avenged the murders.
We know nothing why Jedwabne happened. It was done by a small group o people led by a German burgomaster.

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Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by Futurist » 17 Jul 2020 22:12

Does attacking innocent Jews sound like a particularly good way of avenging these murders, though? I mean, I could at least *understand* if they were killing Red Army commissars (though I still don't think that even this would have actually been justified), but Jews who had absolutely nothing to do with these NKVD prison massacres?

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Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by wm » 17 Jul 2020 22:23

That's middle class or better thinking, of well-fed people in their gated communities, driving Teslas with iPhones in their hands.

Try to spend time among common people, in a bad neighborhood, among the poor. You will see they, exploited by everyone, have nothing - except anger.
That's why someone had to pay for that, innocent or not.

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Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by Futurist » 17 Jul 2020 22:37

Similar to how poor whites in the Southern US supported state-mandated segregation as a way to keep blacks down in order to ensure that there would be someone who would be even lower than themselves on the social ranking totem pole?

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Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by wm » 18 Jul 2020 10:52

It wasn't about politics, the murdered people were their fathers, children, neighbours.
Do you remember the head-shaving in France for horizontal collaboration?
It wasn't different, only worse.

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Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by Futurist » 18 Jul 2020 20:35

Gotcha.

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Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by LAstry » 20 Apr 2022 14:52

The question is if there was no Shoah would there have been Jewish-Polish Intermarriage...such as in the US over 50 % Jewish intermariage with non _jews.... I dont know.....The Jewish Polish Bund,,,was very much for Jewish cultural assiliation...

In regards to Religion.....Jewish religious law is very strict,,,,
examples:
Jewish man married non jewish woman...children will inherit his name..his bloodline.....but not the religion {The only way children will be considered Jewish is if they deceide of their own free will...to take on the Iron Yoke of the Torah...and appearing before a Orthdox Jewish religious Court convert to the Jewish faith
Jewish Woman married non Jewish man....children will inherit the Jewish religion from her....even if she converts to another religion or doesnt not beleive in any religion at all...any male children of such a marriage....if they marry non jewish spouses...the children will not inherit Jewish religion...any female children of the marriage if they marry non jewish spouses that couple children are still considered Jewish...untill there are no more direct female descendants of jewish...woman

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Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by wm » 20 Apr 2022 18:06

Well, marriage ads in the vein "25-year-old Israelite, a master of all virtues except wealth will become acquainted with a [Christian] widow" or the other way "Christian seeks a Jewess with a shop for marriage purposes" happened quite regularly so it wasn't such a problem.
Where there's a will, there's a way.

Marriage ads usually advertised the warez and expectations very openly.

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Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by gebhk » 25 Apr 2022 10:32

Hi L'Astry
You speak of 'Jewish religion' as if it were a monolithic religion. It is not. One may as well speak of the 'Christian religion' albeit the latter group of religions is probably more uniform than the former. Thus the arbitrary (and frankly, often nonsensical) set of one Jewish religion's rules did not control (or rather strive to control) the behaviour of all Jews, let alone succeed at doing so. In Poland there were Jews of every denomination present in that part of the world and many of no religion at all (indeed, I would not be surprised if there was a higher proportion of atheists among the ethnic Jews as there would be, say, among ethnic Poles).

And that's before we get to the fact that the vast majority of humanity follows their religion's strictures with an enthusiasm that is inversely proportional to their inconvenience. Dare I mention, CEWF Catholics (Christmas, Easter, weddings and funerals)? As WM says, where there's a will there's a way.

Finally, since religion is a cultural manifestation, like all minority cultural manifestations it will inevitably dilute and blend into the prevailing majority, as generations suceed each other. The rate at which this happens varies depending on a range of internal and external factors, but it is inevitable.

I doubt very much, therefore, that one of many Jewish religions would have been much of a brake on the common processes taking place throughout Europe and North America in the second half of the 20th Century, which strongly favoured homogenisation be it in religion, language, morality or, the subject of our discussion, mate selection.

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Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by George L Gregory » 29 Apr 2022 23:16

No.

Ethnic Poles are predominantly Catholic.

Poles and non-Jewish Poles tended to keep themselves separate from each other.

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Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by gebhk » 29 Apr 2022 23:51

Errm George, not sure what you mean here....

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Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by George L Gregory » 12 May 2022 07:48

gebhk wrote:
29 Apr 2022 23:51
Errm George, not sure what you mean here....
Polish Jews rarely had anything to do with non-Jewish Poles. Relationships and marriages were a rare thing.

Jews, like many other groups with religion as part of their everyday life, tend to only stick to their ‘own’.

What’s so difficult to understand?

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Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by LAstry2 » 25 May 2022 16:05

The Question is..if not for the Shoah....would the rate of Intermmarige have been high...I dont know..one way prehaps is to study Polish marriage stastics for 1933 -1939 and see if the % of Couples....were Polish + Polish; Jewish + Jewish; Jewish+ Polish.....GOOD LUCK! :lol: :milwink:

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