If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage?

Discussions on all aspects of Poland during the Second Polish Republic and the Second World War. Hosted by Piotr Kapuscinski.
Futurist
Member
Posts: 3642
Joined: 24 Dec 2015 00:02
Location: SoCal

If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage?

Post by Futurist » 08 May 2020 20:16

If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage similar to what Jews in both the US and the Soviet Union saw in the late 20th century and beyond in real life?

Karski
Member
Posts: 59
Joined: 15 Jun 2016 10:59
Location: Belgium

Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by Karski » 09 May 2020 10:40

Futurist wrote:
08 May 2020 20:16
If there is no World War II
What do you mean ? If there is no World war III ?

Futurist
Member
Posts: 3642
Joined: 24 Dec 2015 00:02
Location: SoCal

Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by Futurist » 09 May 2020 20:13

Karski wrote:
09 May 2020 10:40
Futurist wrote:
08 May 2020 20:16
If there is no World War II
What do you mean ? If there is no World war III ?
I meant in a scenario where World War Two never actually occurs.

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 7398
Joined: 29 Dec 2006 20:11
Location: Poland

Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by wm » 10 May 2020 01:27

Do the Orthodox Jews of New York marry the Gentiles in large numbers?
The same would happen in Poland, Polish Jews were largely Orthodox.
In Poland a marriage outside your social group wasn't easy. A peasant wouldn't allow his son to marry a "landless" woman, with a Jewess it was firmly forget it (on both sides.) You had to have steel balls to marry a woman from a "lesser" class.

And the Poles and the Jews lived parallel lives, they had different political goals, they literally knew (almost) nothing about each other.
For the Jews mass intermarriage would lead to their annihilation as a nation - by peaceful means, as it happens in the US.

Futurist
Member
Posts: 3642
Joined: 24 Dec 2015 00:02
Location: SoCal

Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by Futurist » 10 May 2020 03:27

wm wrote:
10 May 2020 01:27
Do the Orthodox Jews of New York marry the Gentiles in large numbers?
The same would happen in Poland, Polish Jews were largely Orthodox.
In Poland a marriage outside your social group wasn't easy. A peasant wouldn't allow his son to marry a "landless" woman, with a Jewess it was firmly forget it (on both sides.) You had to have steel balls to marry a woman from a "lesser" class.

And the Poles and the Jews lived parallel lives, they had different political goals, they literally knew (almost) nothing about each other.
For the Jews mass intermarriage would lead to their annihilation as a nation - by peaceful means, as it happens in the US.
You don't see Polish Jews secularizing in large numbers over time like Soviet Jews did in real life? I'm unsure if US Jews have historically undergone a large secularization trend or whether they were always historically largely secular.

As for their annihilation as a nation, that seems to be an overreaction. In reality, they could have created a new mixed Polish-Jewish nation--something truly wonderful to behold if it would have ever actually happened. There are plenty of people with mixed East Slavic and Jewish descent--myself included. Not too many people with mixed Polish and Jewish descent, though--not least because Polish Jews suffered much more heavily in the Holocaust than Soviet Jews did. Here is one example of a mixed Polish and Jewish descent person, though:

https://sztetl.org.pl/en/oral-history/1 ... na-czernek

You can clearly see both the Polish and the Jewish in this woman. I certainly wouldn't say that the creation of mixed Polish-Jewish people such as this one in huge numbers would have resulted in the annihilation of the Polish Jewish nation--and, in any case, it would have been far superior to what actually happened to Polish Jewry in real life. :(

Karski
Member
Posts: 59
Joined: 15 Jun 2016 10:59
Location: Belgium

Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by Karski » 10 May 2020 10:52

Futurist wrote:
09 May 2020 20:13
Karski wrote:
09 May 2020 10:40
Futurist wrote:
08 May 2020 20:16
If there is no World War II
What do you mean ? If there is no World war III ?
I meant in a scenario where World War Two never actually occurs.
Thanks and sorry.
K.

gebhk
Member
Posts: 2095
Joined: 25 Feb 2013 20:23

Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by gebhk » 10 May 2020 13:34

The heart wants what it wants and biology takes care of what it wants. Over time, whether we like it or not, there is a mixing of culture and genes and this is inevitable. There is a huge range of factors which affect this process and, therefore, its rate. I recall conversations with a British Jewish family and one of the frequent subjects of conversation being how you could easily tell the 1st generation Polish, Russian, German etc Jews apart from British ones and each other, even without the accents. The Polish Jews were culturally more Polish than Jewish in the British Jewish optic. The subsequent generations not so much. Equally, the large Jewish element in the Polish state, could not have but had an influence on Polish culture.

As the world rapidly became smaller in the 20th century, these process could only accelerate.

Also we should not discuss marriage and making babies as if it were the same thing in the context of this discussion. The former can be culturally difficult. The latter happens and happened all the time - the latter even more so before effective contraception was invented.

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 7398
Joined: 29 Dec 2006 20:11
Location: Poland

Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by wm » 10 May 2020 15:41

Futurist wrote:
10 May 2020 03:27
You don't see Polish Jews secularizing in large numbers over time like Soviet Jews did in real life? I'm unsure if US Jews have historically undergone a large secularization trend or whether they were always historically largely secular.
American Jews were secularized by the fact the religious Jews weren't especially keen on emigration, but the secular Jews were.
And the Holocaust survived mostly secular Jews, the religious Jews perished almost all.

The Soviet Jews were culturally genocided by the Soviets, nothing natural about it.

It was different in Poland, the Polish Jews self-governed themselves in incorporated Jewish communities. They had their own elections, taxes, institutions.
That was nice but the fact is the communities were mostly ruled by the conservative, religious Jews (the leftists would add in cahoots with the ruling party). They weren't good breeding grounds for secularism.

And another problem, intermarriage according to whose laws? Because all religious groups had their own.
If you wanted a divorce you were judged according to Jewish laws if you were a religious Jew, or Catholic laws if you were a Catholic (this was the main reason top Polish politicians were mostly Calvinists).
In the case of Jewish marriages, births, deaths, burials, pre-war Poland was like modern Israel. How about this kind of modernization?

The Polish Jews secularized by going "native," entire families changed their religion and customs. That woman is an exception, the process "failed" in her case.
Going native was more frequent than intermarriage.
Of course mixed marriages were a thing - especially among the elites, I saw classified section ads: "A Christian will marry a wealthy Jewess," it simply was an onerous thing to pull off.

Futurist
Member
Posts: 3642
Joined: 24 Dec 2015 00:02
Location: SoCal

Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by Futurist » 15 May 2020 23:44

Which laws were in place for intermarried couples? Surely intermarriage wasn't actually forbidden in Poland, was it?

As for going native, embracing Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior seems like a large sacrifice for a Jew to make, no?

Futurist
Member
Posts: 3642
Joined: 24 Dec 2015 00:02
Location: SoCal

Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by Futurist » 15 May 2020 23:45

FWIW, Israel actually does forbid inter-religious marriage (intermarriage) but recognizes those that are performed abroad--such as in Cyprus. There have recently been calls in Israel to change this system, but unfortunately so far without any success. :(

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 7398
Joined: 29 Dec 2006 20:11
Location: Poland

Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by wm » 07 Jun 2020 16:05

Futurist wrote:
15 May 2020 23:44
Which laws were in place for intermarried couples? Surely intermarriage wasn't actually forbidden in Poland, was it?

As for going native, embracing Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior seems like a large sacrifice for a Jew to make, no?
That's impossible to answer, but as they say, where there's a will there's a way.
In pre-war Poland five different marriage acts were in force (Russian, German, Austrian, Hungarian, and the Napoleonic Code) depending on the territory - that in five different ways granted various religious denominations the right to regulate marriage (btw the get was perfectly legal).

I suppose civil marriage was allowed by most of them (I'm not sure about the Russian one.)

Futurist
Member
Posts: 3642
Joined: 24 Dec 2015 00:02
Location: SoCal

Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by Futurist » 08 Jun 2020 21:47

wm wrote:
07 Jun 2020 16:05
Futurist wrote:
15 May 2020 23:44
Which laws were in place for intermarried couples? Surely intermarriage wasn't actually forbidden in Poland, was it?

As for going native, embracing Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior seems like a large sacrifice for a Jew to make, no?
That's impossible to answer, but as they say, where there's a will there's a way.
In pre-war Poland five different marriage acts were in force (Russian, German, Austrian, Hungarian, and the Napoleonic Code) depending on the territory - that in five different ways granted various religious denominations the right to regulate marriage (btw the get was perfectly legal).

I suppose civil marriage was allowed by most of them (I'm not sure about the Russian one.)
By "get", do you mean the Jewish get?

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 7398
Joined: 29 Dec 2006 20:11
Location: Poland

Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by wm » 10 Jun 2020 22:07

Of course, the one and only.

Futurist
Member
Posts: 3642
Joined: 24 Dec 2015 00:02
Location: SoCal

Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by Futurist » 21 Jun 2020 08:16

Gotcha.

Futurist
Member
Posts: 3642
Joined: 24 Dec 2015 00:02
Location: SoCal

Re: If there is no World War II and no Holocaust, do we eventually see a massive increase in Polish-Jewish intermarriage

Post by Futurist » 25 Jun 2020 03:48

Hey wm, if Poland somehow manages to avoid the Holocaust (for instance, no Nazi rise to power in Germany and thus very possibly no World War II), is Polish Jewish fertility during the late 20th century and beyond likely to be as low as Soviet Jewish fertility during the late 20th century and beyond was in real life? In real life, the Soviet Jewish population began experiencing a chronic decline starting from 1959. This decline was exacerbated by emigration, but even before mass Jewish emigration from the Soviet Union actually began, the Soviet Union's Jewish population was already significantly declining--with the Soviet Union losing a whopping 5% of its Jewish population between 1959 and 1970, or slightly more than 100,000 Jews. This is in spite of there being almost no Jewish emigration from the Soviet Union between 1959 and 1970.

Return to “Poland 1919-1945”