Churchill - Katyn - Appeasement

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Michael Kenny
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Re: Churchill - Katyn - Appeasement

Post by Michael Kenny » 28 Jun 2020 22:03

Futurist wrote:
25 Jun 2020 20:24
After all, countries such as Poland are not exactly friendly when it comes to receiving large numbers of non-European immigrants and especially large numbers of Muslim immigrants.
Translation into English:

After all, countries such as England are not exactly friendly when it comes to receiving large numbers of Polish immigrants and especially large numbers of Muslim immigrants.

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Re: Churchill - Katyn - Appeasement

Post by Futurist » 28 Jun 2020 22:07

Michael Kenny wrote:
28 Jun 2020 22:03
Futurist wrote:
25 Jun 2020 20:24
After all, countries such as Poland are not exactly friendly when it comes to receiving large numbers of non-European immigrants and especially large numbers of Muslim immigrants.
Translation into English:

After all, countries such as England are not exactly friendly when it comes to receiving large numbers of Polish immigrants and especially large numbers of Muslim immigrants.
Poles are Europeans. Of course, Yes, I do seem to recall reading about some British complaints about Polish plumbers and whatnot after Poland joined the European Union in 2004.

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Re: Churchill - Katyn - Appeasement

Post by Michael Kenny » 28 Jun 2020 22:13

Futurist wrote:
28 Jun 2020 22:07

Poles are Europeans. Of course, Yes, I do seem to recall reading about some British complaints about Polish plumbers and whatnot after Poland joined the European Union in 2004.
The day after after Poland joined and every day since. Brexit has emboldened those who want rid of 'Europeans'-ALL Europeans.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/video ... exit-video

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Re: Churchill - Katyn - Appeasement

Post by Futurist » 28 Jun 2020 22:42

Michael Kenny wrote:
28 Jun 2020 22:13
Futurist wrote:
28 Jun 2020 22:07

Poles are Europeans. Of course, Yes, I do seem to recall reading about some British complaints about Polish plumbers and whatnot after Poland joined the European Union in 2004.
The day after after Poland joined and every day since. Brexit has emboldened those who want rid of 'Europeans'-ALL Europeans.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/video ... exit-video
So, good ol' Boris wants Hong Kongers but not Poles, eh?

Michael Kenny
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Re: Churchill - Katyn - Appeasement

Post by Michael Kenny » 28 Jun 2020 23:25

Futurist wrote:
28 Jun 2020 22:42

So, good ol' Boris wants Hong Kongers but not Poles, eh?
Boris Bluster. A sound-bite with no thought to the consequences. He knows his 'base' would not accept them.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Churchill - Katyn - Appeasement

Post by Sid Guttridge » 29 Jun 2020 00:04

Hi Guys,

If I recall correctly, the UK was almost the only country in the EU to allow the populations of newer EU entrants like the Poles to enter freely almost immediately. Why weren't the Germans or French so "communitaire"?

Any way, on the whole the Poles were a decided asset to the UK and still are.

Personally, as a child of empire, I think the UK should favour Commonwealth immigration over all other. Assuming we weren't training enough of our own, while I would be.happy with a Polish plumber, all other things being equal, I would prefer one from India, Australia, Jamaica or Zimbabwe, because that is where our historic obligations lie.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Churchill - Katyn - Appeasement

Post by Michael Kenny » 29 Jun 2020 00:26

Sid Guttridge wrote:
29 Jun 2020 00:04


Any way, on the whole the Poles were a decided asset to the UK and still are.

That depends on what was your place in industry.
If you were a factory manager looking for people who would work 16 hours a day 7 days a week you could not believe your luck.
If you were an unskilled factory labourer then you saw your chances of overtime vanish overnight, your wages frozen at the minimum and you became easily replaceable if you complained about it.
In case anyone want's to jump in and tell me how wrong I am I will just add I was involved in this area and saw first-hand the devastating effect of the lowering of wages among the unskilled. This is not a complaint about foreigners and is just a reminder how badly this influx impacted those without any political clout-that is until UKIP started recruiting them.

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Re: Churchill - Katyn - Appeasement

Post by Michael Kenny » 29 Jun 2020 00:31

Sid Guttridge wrote:
29 Jun 2020 00:04

Any way, on the whole the Poles were a decided asset to the UK and still are.
Unfortunately that is not a factor in the current climate. There is considerable support for the principle of removing all Europeans that over-rides all other concerns. If this 'principle' means wrecking the economy then that is considered a price worth paying.

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Re: Churchill - Katyn - Appeasement

Post by Sid Guttridge » 29 Jun 2020 00:40

Hi Michael,

I would suggest that the introduction of the minimum wage, and subsequent rises in it, meant that the unskilled, in particular, providing they were in work, actually saw a rise in income during the same period as the Polish immigration. The two are not mutually exclusive.

And how many people in the UK really work 16 hours a day, seven days a week? No case is helped by transparent exaggeration.

Cheers,

Sid.

P.S. Only an idiot would think wrecking the economy in order to send all "Europeans" back would be a worthwhile sacrifice. I voted for Brexit, not wilful self harm. (And no, Europhiles, these are not necessarily the same thing!)
Last edited by Sid Guttridge on 29 Jun 2020 00:46, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Churchill - Katyn - Appeasement

Post by Futurist » 29 Jun 2020 00:42

Sid Guttridge wrote:
29 Jun 2020 00:04
Hi Guys,

If I recall correctly, the UK was almost the only country in the EU to allow the populations of newer EU entrants like the Poles to enter freely almost immediately. Why weren't the Germans or French so "communitaire"?

Any way, on the whole the Poles were a decided asset to the UK and still are.

Personally, as a child of empire, I think the UK should favour Commonwealth immigration over all other. Assuming we weren't training enough of our own, while I would be.happy with a Polish plumber, all other things being equal, I would prefer one from India, Australia, Jamaica or Zimbabwe, because that is where our historic obligations lie.

Cheers,

Sid.
Would you also allow unlimited US immigration into Britain? Also, are you thinking of open borders between the Commonwealth and the UK or something less than that?

As for Germany, given its eagerness to accept a million mostly Muslim refugees in 2015, Yes, Germany should have certainly opened its doors to Polish plumbers. Ditto for France.

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Steve
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Re: Churchill - Katyn - Appeasement

Post by Steve » 29 Jun 2020 00:49

Sid,

Clearly Europe is part of a wider whole namely the world. To describe something with out which the modern world would not exist namely electricity and the infrastructure that goes with it such as the great dams etc. as just an add on to say Roman plumbing is quite a stretch. Would nuclear power fall into the same category? As I said all civilisations except the first build on what was before.

If we were to go back to say the 15c we would find the largest contiguous Christian area in the world was in Europe. Europe has been mainly Christian since the 11c with parts converting to Christianity during the Roman Empire and staying Christian after it fell. It would be hard to argue against the proposition that Christianity has been the biggest shaper of European identity.

Europe is part of the Asian land mass but that land mass is so huge and diverse that it has to be divided up into areas so we know which part we are talking about. Europe is one part of the Asian continent not a continent by itself.

Siberia is not a defining line of separation because it runs all the way from Europe to the Pacific. As far as I know there has never been a mass movement of people passing through it from Asia into Europe. The trackless wastes and forest act as a barrier or did before the Trans Siberian express.

I doubt if all the minor language groups mentioned such as the Sami etc if added together would come close to one of the three main ones. Aren’t Etruscan and Old Prussian dead languages? Iranians and the others are not European people because they do not live or originate in Europe. Most dogs bark much the same but they are not all the same.

Chinese civilisation by the 19c was living on past glories but it was not perhaps as bad as Islamic civilisation which seems to have slipped into a coma. Without the Americans banging on the Japanese door and waking them up they would probably still be where they were in 1854. Could it be argued that the world changing industrial revolution was not a result of pan European civilisation but came about because of Protestant Christians in northern Europe?

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Re: Churchill - Katyn - Appeasement

Post by Sid Guttridge » 29 Jun 2020 00:50

Hi futurist,

I wouldn't favour any sort of unlimited immigration to the UK, whatever the source.

Cheers,

Sid.

Michael Kenny
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Re: Churchill - Katyn - Appeasement

Post by Michael Kenny » 29 Jun 2020 01:01

Sid Guttridge wrote:
29 Jun 2020 00:40

I would suggest that the introduction of the minimum wage, and subsequent rises in it, meant that the unskilled, in particular, providing they were in work, actually saw a rise in income during the same period as the Polish immigration. The two are not mutually exclusive.
Given it was my job to deal with wages in this period then I can say you are completely and utterly wrong. For example firms that gave an annual wage increase stopped it and allowed wages to drop to the minimum wage and thus had no more need to do any consultation with the work-force.
Sid Guttridge wrote:
29 Jun 2020 00:40

And how many people in the UK really work 16 hours a day, seven days a week? No case is helped by transparent exaggeration.
Again, from experience when a group of Poles moved into a factory they organised and some women set up unofficial creches where they looked after children of the others.. Poles would work the maximum number of hours a day 7 days a week. I worked beside married couples who were on opposite 12 hour shifts 7 days a week. They only saw each other at shift hand-over. If a factory manager needed workers quickly then they asked one of the Poles who would make a phone call and within an hour any number of bodies would be available. It was not always on the books either. I know that in my town the largest private employer stopped all local recruitment and dealt only with Polish employment agencies. That is a fact.
The trouble was that all this was going on in factories and hidden from public view.
There are two sides to everything and when eventually the firm I worked for went under I spoke to a manager about it and when I said the poles had made wages stagnate he said that the firm would have gone bust earlier if it was not for the Poles. That may be but it is indisputable that if you were an unskilled worker your terms and conditions were severely impacted by the a influx of cheap labour. The first batch of Poles I saw were all well-educated people who came to learn English. They intended to 'move on' and better themselves but they disadvantaged those who could not 'move on' and depended on that line of work.

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Re: Churchill - Katyn - Appeasement

Post by Sid Guttridge » 29 Jun 2020 01:50

Hi Steve,

Certainly electricity is an add on. Cities existed for millennia before the invention of electricity. I live in a house that was in the first street in my town to be retrofitted with electricity. I even have some of the original wiring, though not in use.

Christianity may or may not be the biggest shaper of European identity. However, it was definitely an import from outside Europe by any definition and is therefore not a particularly European phenomenon. If something apparently so central to European identity isn't European in the first place, how "European" is "Europe"?

And what about before the advent of Christianity? Was "Europe" really "Europe" then? After all, its "biggest shaper" would be absent.

I agree that Europe is really a part of Eurasia, rather than a genuine continent in itself. Not every one here agreed.

I also have no problem in principle with calling the western end of Eurasia "Europe" if it is convenient, just as I have no problem with the Indian subcontient being so named.

I don't see why size of language group should disqualify one from being European. Are Slavs, Germanics and Latins the only Europeans? The Greeks are going to be really miffed!

The problem with excluding the Iranians from being European is that (1) we still haven't got an agreed definition of "Europe's" eastern boundary (a link I gave above offers about a dozen alternatives), (2) it is likely that the Iranians did originate within whatever borders may be advanced for "Europe" and (3) they, like the Slavs, Latins and Germanics, undoubtedly speak an Indo-European language.

The industrial revolution seems to have started without any obvious Slavic input, so it is not a pan-European innovation. The Chinese may have.missed their moment to initiate the industrial revolution, but they have since proved that one doesn't need to be "European" or Christian to exploit it effectively and even take the lead in its evolution.

The industrial revolution began in western Eurasia not because nobody else was capable of it, but because the particular conjunction of circumstances necessary happened to come together there first.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Steve
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Re: Churchill - Katyn - Appeasement

Post by Steve » 30 Jun 2020 04:19

Sid, If you think that the production of electricity and then moving it to your house is just another add on to the house like perhaps double glazing then fair enough.

Christianity may have once been an exotic foreign import but it has put down roots, spread and mutated, it is now as European as tulips. Christianity has been a major mover and shaker in Europe for 1,700 years but its influence is waning now.

I never said that speakers of small language groups were not European but there are three main language groups in Europe.

Sir Barrington Windsor Cunliffe CBE FBA FSA, known as Barry Cunliffe, is a British archaeologist and academic. He was Professor of European Archaeology at the University of Oxford from 1972 to 2007. Since 2007, he has been an Emeritus Professor.

This is his definition “South of the peninsula the Mediterranean and the Black Sea together extend for about 2,500 miles from Gibraltar to Georgia” I shall miss out a bit about ancient Greeks and the North Sea and Baltic. “The root of the peninsula between the Baltic (Gulf of Riga) and the Black Sea is barely 700 miles across. Where Europe ends and Asia begins has for long been a matter of debate. For those who favour a mountain barrier the Urals have their attraction” …………… “Others though have preferred a river boundary, suggesting the Don or the Volga. There is little consensus nor need there be one; peninsulas by their very nature grade imperceptibly into continents”.

For about a decade now I have occasionally watched the Iranian news channel Press TV (banned in the UK) and if the Iranians think of themselves as Europeans it has passed me by. One reason they may not think of themselves as Europeans is that they clearly do not live in Europe. Their language may have the same root as most European languages but its all in a very remote past.

The British started the industrial revolution but it was quickly taken up and advanced by countries such as Germany, Belgium and France with smaller contributions from others. As far as science and technology goes Chinese civilisation by the 18c seems to have pretty much reached the end of the road. I have somewhere a wonderful piece of writing from mid 19c China about why China did not need railways.

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