In WW2 the Germany had a chance to win?

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panzzer
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In WW2 the Germany had a chance to win?

Post by panzzer » 25 Jul 2002 03:51

:roll: I have a question ...how would be posibile for Germany to win the WW2?










If they had no faild on battle for Stalingrad? Or if they dont attack Russia!!?










They had a chase?



Becouse the Great Britany was not so strong , and if Germany continue










they war to Great Britany whit a debacation of many troops ! it's this posibile??










Great Britany , then Russia and then USA or USA whit help from Japanese and then Russia!?










---------Its this posibile? -----------











































:oops: sorry for my bad english

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Gott
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Post by Gott » 25 Jul 2002 08:15

Obviously, yes.

First, Goering's mistakes on Battle of Britain. If it had suceeded, Operation Sealion would be launched and the British army would not stand a chance. The British army might be even worse than the French army.

Second, Operation Barbarossa would suceed if Hitler chose Moscow as the main objective instead of Stalingrad. Hitler's generals told they should capture Moscow first, but Hitler insisted on Stalingrad because of he siad his generals does not know the "economic aspects of the war."

Third, poor intelligence. All German agents in Britain were idenified and captured because much problem is done. Mainly because Admiral Canaris, the chief of the intelligence, secretly worked against the Nazis already beofre the war.

-Spain did not enter the Axis powers is mainly because Canaris secretly gave Franco statistics of an alarming rate of German casualties in Russia. So Franco refused to join the war.

Third, from what I read and from I studied independently, Germans should put more forces in Africa (most of Britain tank forces were there)and then invade Arabia, therefor capturing their oil and the Allies would not be able to give strong defense. Then having Arabian oil means invading Russia to capture oils of the Caucsasas would no longer be an objective, so the Stalingrad debacle might not happen and therefore turning the tide of war.

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panzzer
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Post by panzzer » 25 Jul 2002 16:47

If Rommel should got the necesary equipment to continue his way to the
Cairo and then to the Caucaz ....and to make jonction with the army ho
fight in Russia ..and to eliminate any effort of britan to keep Africa...I belive the russian war effort would been over! The big problem is now
~~USA~~ because they had air power and naval power ... but germans
had on they side Japan! If Russia colapsed ... the chanse to succeed for germans would be bigger!

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Post by rlh » 26 Jul 2002 03:01

1) If Germany had developed a decent intelligence network.

2) If the German Kriegsmarine had paid attention to simple statisics and noted that when they altered their communications codes the sinkings of the U-Boats went up and U-Boat losses went down.

3) If Germany had welcomed the Ukranians, Belorussians, Russians, etc who welcomed them as liberators from Stalin, etc.

4) If Hitler had kept his mouth shut and not declared war on the US and let the US fight Japan. The US Congress would have cancelled supplies to Britain and the USSR to shift them to the war on Japan.

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Germany's Chances in WWII

Post by JLEES » 26 Jul 2002 14:49

If Germany had taken Moscow, had better agents, used the Me-262 earlier, they might have been the recievers of the Atmic bomb instead of the Japanese. Remember Fat Man and Little Boy were both developed with Nazi-Germany and not Japan in mind. After the USA entered the war, with its massive industrial potential and techical abilities Hitler's days were numbered.
James

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Post by Leibstandarte » 27 Jul 2002 09:29

For me the key to success was bringing the war in the Med and North Africa to a speedy conclusion in early 1941 and that this could have been accomplished is not in any doubt. Germany only put 3 divisions into North Africa and even with this small force Rommel still came close to taking Egypt. Make that 3 Pzr divs and 3 Infantry divs and the Germans would have walloped the 8th Army - sheer numbers and fighting ability.

Given this situation I do believe that Britain would have been very likely to sue for peace in the event that they were booted out of North Africa, Palestine etc and with Germany threatening India etc. Churchill would probably have been forced from office.

Also consider the political effect upon Turkey. This would have been pivotal and would in all probability have resulted in Turkey opening its borders to German troops making a war with the USSR much easier as it would have meant the Caucausas could have been taken early.

It would also have provided Germany with the oil she needed - and therefore not wholly dependent upon Rumania.

With Britain out of the war, and given the strategic position of Axis troops Russia really would have gone down under the hammer blows of invasion from Europe and from the Causcausus.

I would welcome any other comments.

Leibstandarte

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Victor
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Post by Victor » 27 Jul 2002 12:25

I believe that Germany and her allies could have won the war.

The first thing that should not happen would have to be the escape of the BEF. I am not so sure that Britain would have had the strength to fight on without these experienced troops. The threat of a German invasion was big in the British mind, even though the Germans weren’t capable of one in 1940. So Britain might take Hitler's peace offer.
This would mean no Balkan campaign, no North African campaign, much less troops and airplanes left to guard the West and a more successful drive into Russia. Maybe Germany could have succeeded in defeating the SU and establishing itself as the most powerful state in Europe.
gott wrote: Spain did not enter the Axis powers is mainly because Canaris secretly gave Franco statistics of an alarming rate of German casualties in Russia. So Franco refused to join the war.
Spain did not join the Axis mainly because it depended economically on the USA. It would starve if it dared to join Germany, which could not provide her with the necessary resources.

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Post by Kapitan Drago » 27 Jul 2002 16:46

I think atacking Russia before finish with Britain was big mistake.If they take Britain and keep North Africa ,then US Air Force become useless in Europe. And if the Germans suply better their allys with modern weapons.
My web page ,with info about Bulgarian military history:
http://hometown.aol.com/bogdanovaslava/index.html

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Post by panzzer » 27 Jul 2002 23:11

The problem of Hitler was that ..... he loved the english stile .... he belived that the english would understand the need of expansion! Hitler want to conquer the Russia and not Great Britan! ...I belive that Hitler .....in his mide ....he dont want to eliminate Great Britan!!



I am not sure ...but I belive that in his minde was a continuas war!



He fight agains that she loved! He was in peace with Russia and in war with Great Britan! :roll:




















sorry about my english :oops:

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Post by b_c_ries » 28 Jul 2002 19:34

The Axis had the potential to win, they lost the war in 1942. They should have postponed operation typhoon until spring 1942, invaded Malta, Supported Vichy France when England was invading their colonies, worked out a co-ordinated plan with the Japanese to deny supplies to the 8th army going around Africa. The Germans lacked the strategic vision of the Anglo-American alliance. Hitler was making tactical decisions when he should have concerned himself with strategic matters which nobody was apparently making.
If 70 grains of IMR 4064 in a 7.92x57 case behind a 197 gr. fmj is too much then 85 grains should be just right.

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Post by Gwynn Compton » 29 Jul 2002 12:21

We do have to remember that Hitler was nick named the "Bohemian Corporal" by Hindenburg. Perhaps the old man was right to remind those near him that Hitler had tactical, not strategic combat experience...

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Post by Panzer general » 30 Jul 2002 09:35

Gwynn Compton wrote:We do have to remember that Hitler was nick named the "Bohemian Corporal" by Hindenburg. Perhaps the old man was right to remind those near him that Hitler had tactical, not strategic combat experience...
Hmmm I do not agree. Hitler wasn't so bad at all. He was the one who take some (risky) decisions that result in conquer almost Europe!!! The mean problem was the relationship between him and most of his generals. And some generals had made some weird decisions too. A good example of this is Operation Zitadelle (Kursk).

Most of his generals want to go through with this stupid operation. The Russians were already alarmed and had plenty of time to dig in! Hitler wasn't so sure about this operation neither Guderian. But the rest of the High Commander centre, even von Manstein would not listen to Guderian. (Hitler agree with Guderian but he had no other choice to give green light to the operation because he was under pressure after the debacle in Stalingrad)

My opinion about Germany winning the war is: if Hitler had started operation Barbarossa with his best General Guderian as Chief commander and not Halder, he would certainly had won the war.

Grtz

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Post by b_c_ries » 31 Jul 2002 00:12

I think that Hitler was very effective at his job, meaning creating public support for his government, some of his military decisions were correct. Several books have been written which seek to blame all German military defeats on Hitlers interference, ignoring the fact that nearly all of the most successful military leaders in history were willing to ignore orders from higher up when it is required for the success of their operations. If a Field Marshall or General obeys a stupid order and losses his command he will be sacked so why not gamble for success. One of Hitlers most insightful orders was to up-gun panzer mk-111's to the L-60 50mm gun prior to the start of operation Barbarosa everybody was quite content to ignore this order. The German armoured troops would have been in a much better position to deal with T-34 and KV tanks with the improved armament. I believe that the overall quality of troops that Germany possessed at the beginning of Barbarosa was never equaled later in the war and that the existence of more effective tank guns in the hands of these troops could have resulted in the fall of moscow.
If 70 grains of IMR 4064 in a 7.92x57 case behind a 197 gr. fmj is too much then 85 grains should be just right.

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Post by Gwynn Compton » 31 Jul 2002 10:36

ignoring the fact that nearly all of the most successful military leaders in history were willing to ignore orders from higher up when it is required for the success of their operations. If a Field Marshall or General obeys a stupid order and losses his command he will be sacked so why not gamble for success. One of Hitlers most insightful orders was to up-gun panzer mk-111's to the L-60 50mm gun prior to the start of operation Barbarosa everybody was quite content to ignore this order. The German armoured troops would have been in a much better position to deal with T-34 and KV tanks with the improved armament. I believe that the overall quality of troops that Germany possessed at the beginning of Barbarosa was never equaled later in the war and that the existence of more effective tank guns in the hands of these troops could have resulted in the fall of moscow.
Pressing for bigger guns does not make one a competent military mind. Look at the insanely large siege artillery pieces developed by the Germans, while they may have assisted in the fall of, most famously, Sevastapol, they had little overall value. While the upgrading of the tank guns was a good idea, the possessing of more effective tank guns would not have lead to the fall of Moscow. What was needed for that, I believe and have discussed in another thread in the Polls section, was firstly, as you've said, more quality, but also, more quantity in the equipment that the Wehrmacht had. Hitler's strategy didn't count for a long war, and this was fatal.

Of interest here is also this part of your post,
ignoring the fact that nearly all of the most successful military leaders in history were willing to ignore orders from higher up when it is required for the success of their operations. If a Field Marshall or General obeys a stupid order and losses his command he will be sacked so why not gamble for success.
Yes gambling often happens in war, but Hitler's gambles should not be compared with the gambles of Guderian or Manstein. Both Guderian and Manstein were hugely knowledgable about the quality and capabilities of both their troops, and their oppenents. Successful military leaders nearly always are, either that or they already have such a huge advantage that they just look good anyway. Hitler's gambles are often senseless, the 1944 Ardennes Offensive for instance. Hitler managed to somehow fool himself that if he could take Antwerp, he could force the Allied armies to sue for peace. Little did he realise that by December 1944, the German's plight was already hopeless.

Hitler's gamble in 1941 of attacking Russia, another ill fated venture, though perhaps with more logical reasoning behind it that the Ardennes offensive. Hitler's General's were often forced to follow stupid orders, and when they tried to disobey, they were forced, by Hitler, to resign. Not effective leadership at all. And there were reprecussions later on for the Wehrmacht.

Most notably of these was Stalingrad. Paulus, having failed to disobey Hitler's orders, failing to take the gamble of breaking out early enough in the encirclement while there was still a chance, is a direct result of Hitler's own belief in his infallibility. Something which Paulus also believed in.

I give Hitler credit for being able to stay in the war for so long, it was quite the achievement. And he did follow some logical paths at times, but I don't believe he was an effective military leader. Certainly he could display good insight into war, especially when he realised that the only chance for victory in 1942 against Russia was to cut her off from her oil supplies completely, however this was merely a vague strategic policy. Hitler's interference in the actual strategy of the campaign, just as in 1941, and was to be seen later in the war, was to prove fatal to the 6th Army.

The Generals and Field Marshalls in the end couldn't really disobey Hitler, his "effective" leadership had, in my opinion, paralised the flexibility needed of Heer leadership, when they had the knowledge to know what was humanly possible.

Hitler gambled, but ultimately he was a failure, and had many more failings in a military sense than he had victories. As a mobiliser of the masses, now thats where Hitler was effective, but as a controller of a war, I find him sadly lacking in the end.

Regards

Gwynn

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Post by b_c_ries » 01 Aug 2002 00:44

The point I was trying to make is that most successful Generals will disobey or "misunderstand" stupid orders when they truly have a better idea. I feel that a military leader has an obligation to his troops not to squander their lives that goes beyond his obligation to his superiors. Hitler didn't seem to get too upset about the abandonment of Kharkov in early 1943 when it ultimately resulted in the successful recapture. Any general that squanders the lives of his men following a stupid order does not deserve to lead them.
If 70 grains of IMR 4064 in a 7.92x57 case behind a 197 gr. fmj is too much then 85 grains should be just right.

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